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Author Topic: Mortars  (Read 3897 times)

Offline cuprum

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Re: Mortars
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2013, 05:04:16 PM »
"Bombomet" - in the terminology of the Imperial Army is the mortar that shoots "over-caliber" ammunition (bomb).


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Re: Mortars
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2013, 06:16:55 PM »
I don't speak russian and I can't judge translations, but have You considered that rifle grenade launchers that were quite common in WW1 do fall into Your definition? Apart from mortars that quite often had over-calibre ammo?
Could it be that Bombomet simply means small calibre grenade launcher and mortars are the larger ones, which in WW1 terminology could have calibres over 100 mm and breach loading?
Again, I don't speak russian but the terminology of mortar and grenade launcher have shifted considerably since WW1.
What would be Your very educated asessment, taking all this into consideration?

I am not after an argument here, I only want to understand  :)


Offline Mark Plant

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Re: Mortars
« Reply #17 on: June 02, 2013, 12:05:41 AM »
My understanding is that in 1920 two words were used for howitzers – gaubitza (гаубица) and mortira (мортира). Since then I believe there has been a shift so that mortira is now mortar in the English sense. Several times I have seen references to "mortars" in 1919/1920 that were clearly howitzers. 

In the early summer of 1919 the Revolutionary Military Council of the All-Russian General Staff proposed to start forming mortar batteries as part of spare artillery brigades. Mortar battery then combined to in separate mortar divisions.

I context I suspect those would be howitzer battalions in English (a divizion not being a division).

The regiment is composed of 3 battalions and machine-gun team - 12 machine guns, training team, mortar team - 2 bombomet and 2 mortars ..."

Whereas these would be mortars, presumably Allied supplied, since they are in the correct place for mortars in the TOE and are beside bomb-throwers. Not that they ever fielded their official organisation at any time.

So the bullet points that Giles listed seem quite reasonable to me, although I'm pretty sure the British sent mortars and men to train on them but the pitiful supply chain prevented frequent use. You see very few trench mortars on Orders of Battle, but they were definitely around in small numbers.

Offline cuprum

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Re: Mortars
« Reply #18 on: June 02, 2013, 04:13:54 AM »
I see we're a little confused about the "difference of terminology" of the last century in the name of weapons in the Russian army  ;D

That's according to Russian sources notation that time:

Ружейный гранатомет ("Ruzheynyy granatomet") - Rifle grenade launcher. He shoots normal hand grenade or a special grenade. So called device for throwing grenades with a shot from a rifle (or other small arms).
At a later time can be shown as - Ружейная мортирка "Ruzheynaya mortirka" - Rifle small mortar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle_grenade

Миномет ("Minomet") - Mortar. Artillery gun, mortar variety, different devices and the lack of recoil gun carriage - they replace the base plate through which the recoil momentum transferred to the ground. Used for shooting "mina" (projectile for "minomet") is lowered into the bore.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CC%E8%ED%EE%EC%B8%F2

In Russia and the Soviet Union until the first half of the 1930s to the class of "minomet" refers mortars, designed to fire over-caliber ammunition (artillery bombs ("bomba"), such systems are also known as "field bombomet").
Бомбомет ("Bombomet") - Mortar. Described above on the theme.
Often the term "minomet" and "bombomet" mixed in with use.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C1%EE%EC%E1%EE%EC%B8%F2_(%EF%EE%EB%E5%E2%EE%E9)

Мортира ("Mortira") - Mortar. Artillery gun with a short barrel for a firing high-arcing ballistic trajectories. Many modern languages ​​"mortira" and "minomet" are called in one word. In the modern Russian language, the term "mortira" applies only to a short-barreled guns with no plates, transmitting a return to the land (ie, non-"minomet").
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CC%EE%F0%F2%E8%F0%E0


And the designation of an organizational unit in the Russian army ...

Дивизион ("Divizion") - Division. Artillery division, generally consisted of 3 artillery batteries (2-6 artillery guns in each artillery battery).

Дивизия ("Diviziya") - Division. The basic tactical formation in the various services of the Armed forces and military branches, consisting of management (Staff) and military units.

As you can see, these concepts are confused in the Russian text - it is impossible, because different terms are used. In English, the confusion becomes possible.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 04:24:37 AM by cuprum »

Offline giles the zog

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Re: Mortars
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2013, 04:01:59 PM »
Thanks gents, have started work today on the first mortar:

http://thelostcityofcarcosa.com/2013/06/02/bobrcw-mortar-part-1/

I hope to have two mortars and crew done in time for my Big Game in late June.

Thanks for all the help !  :-*

Later I might have a look at the stokes mortars as another option...  8)
Wandering stars, for whom is reserved, the blackness, the darkness forever.

https://thelostcityofcarcosa.com

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Re: Mortars
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2013, 04:04:35 PM »
Yup, that's the spirit! all that theoretical talking when it's all about gaming.  ;)
check scarab miniatures french WW1 range for amazing artillery crews

Offline Mark Plant

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Re: Mortars
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2013, 08:36:37 PM »
Quote
Дивизион ("Divizion") - Division. Artillery division, generally consisted of 3 artillery batteries (2-6 artillery guns in each artillery battery).

No. Please, a Divizion is always a battalion in English when referring to artillery. We don't have an appropriate term when a cavalry unit is so named, leading to "half-regiment" or the like having to do the function. (Or stick with divizion.)

It is confusing, but it isn't helped by calling a unit that is not a division a "division" – you can't have a division that is a sub-unit of a division.

Quote
Мортира ("Mortira") - Mortar. Artillery gun with a short barrel for a firing high-arcing ballistic trajectories. Many modern languages ​​"mortira" and "minomet" are called in one word. In the modern Russian language, the term "mortira" applies only to a short-barreled guns with no plates, transmitting a return to the land (ie, non-"minomet").

Yes. But that omits that the modern usage is not necessarily the usage in 1919. An "artillery gun with a short barrel for a firing high-arcing ballistic trajectories" pretty much defines a howitzer, and that is how the term mortira seems to have been applied back then.

Quote
Yup, that's the spirit! all that theoretical talking when it's all about gaming.

It's entirely practical. I've seen references in the past to "cavalry divisions" that give the impression of thousands, that were actually a divizion of a few hundred. Budenny's biography has "divisions" being wiped out that I'm pretty sure are only battalions badly translated.

And a reference to a "mortar division" that is actually a howitzer battalion (of as few as 6 guns on the ground) is a "theoretical difference" that I at least care to get right.

Offline cuprum

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Re: Mortars
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2013, 01:02:44 AM »
In the Russian-language source, the translation of which I cited above (about the red artillery) the following words:

"Производилось также формирование минометных подразделений. В начале лета 1919 года Реввоенсовет Республики предложил Всероссийскому главному штабу приступить к формированию минометных батарей при запасных артиллерийских бригадах. Минометные батареи сводились затем в отдельные минометные дивизионы. Так, например, в конце июня 1919 года на Южном фронте уже действовал 1-й отдельный минометный дивизион."

According to the book: "Артиллерия в боях за Родину" (М.: Воениздат, 1957),
http://militera.lib.ru/h/prochko_is/02.html

Note the word "миномет, минометный"! In the Russian language, they can not be applied to mortar (мортира) or howitzers no under any circumstances.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 01:05:23 AM by cuprum »

 

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