Strange Aeons - The Watchers In The Woods Campaign

[superflytnt]

An "Elephant Gun" is inherently hard to shoot, Bergh, and as a weapon, it's INCREDIBLY bad.

Elephant guns shoot 2000 grain slugs, and a .50 cal BMG round is about 800 grains. So, it's almost triple the weight of a heavy machinegun round, it travels MUCH slower, and it kicks almost as hard as the elephant you're trying to shoot. On top of that, it doesn't penetrate very well, so thick-skinned animals with a lot of fat required a headshot to crack the skull rather than a heart shot like other game hunting.

The 1894 is a very easy to shoot, fast firing, and is VERY accurate. It has all the advantages of a bolt action rifle, and I assumed that the 8mm Mauser round would be what is loaded in the bolt action of the time. 8mm's drop MUCH faster than 30-30 rounds.

I researched the "effective range" of the 1894, which at 200 yards would kill a target animal by a trained marksman. A Springfield '06 bolt action has an effective range of around 1000 yards with a scope,  and a K98 has an effective range of 550 yards with open sights and 1000 yards with a scope. At 28mm scale, with 1" = 6 feet, consider that the range listed is 144 feet, which is WELL within the range of all rifled weapons in the game, even by a relatively untrained rifleman.

I'm thinking that all rifled guns in the game aside from the Elephant Gun should have a range of "unlimited" since the max distance on an SA board is 36", which is equivalent to 72 yards, which even an amateur could put on target (36"x6 feet scale (216 feet) / 3 feet per yard = 72 yards).

As you can see, I put some thought into it.

Peabody is right about the fact that this is NOT an easy weapon to obtain - you have to save 5-6 civilians (something we have yet to see here at Chez Pete) and keeping it may not be so easy in the final mission. The "lookie what I have, wankers" table talk is also a huge reason I put such a fine rifle in the game.

[Bergh]

If it was a "ready weapon", you had to use 1 action to ready it, and 1 action to shoot it. Making the maximum shots 2D6 per round. And you will have no alert shot.

Im not a big fan of the Tesla rifle or other of those super-pulp weapons, and I freely choose to ignore them.

Its all about playing style, for me its not about getting the biggest gun and blasting at the enemy, for that there are way better games the Strange Aeons, not saying all kinda computer games with that theme.

For me its all about the story of a team of threshold agent, rooting out evil, where the agents are in the center of attention, not the HMG's and super weapons they carry. I can go on about the flavour of theme, and happily I have a gaming group which wants the "story" of the game, not breaking the game.

The Winchester are better than ANY other weapon with no drawback, why not just give the threshold team a tank? I wonder why anyone used any other weapon in history up to this day then the world conquering winchester rifle! The rifle is in the campaign presented as a Rare-loot-artifact-drop in my oppinion, and the campaign would be much better with something else then this.

else I think the campaign seems very fine, and i'm surely going to try it out.

[Bergh]

I'm very sure you are right, and all gun ranges in the game are not realistic, and as I see it, this is because of game-balance, and fluff vice its because most scenarios are happening at night, and the darkness put a natural limit on how far you can see.

why also the "alert" range is 8", its actually quite hard too see someone sneaking up at you in the darkness, even on a flat field.

If you want 24" range then you will have to change most other weapons ranges too, or else its just wrong to give one weapon realistic stats, while the rest are made too function within game-balance.

For me its about the "Story of the game", not an expedition on having a firing line of super-rifles. Both styles are fine, just pointing out that your weapon seem wrong compared to the rest of the listed weapons in Strange Aeons.

[superflytnt]

Let me get to the points individually to get things in perspective:

You surely know more about firearms then me, my experiences is limited too military training and a few hunting rifle shoots. I'm sure its a superior firearm compared to many others in real life.

Think of the timeframe, the 1920s. Pre WW2, and the Thompson was pretty much unused in a military setting. Light Machineguns had JUST come into service in WW1, and were generally unwieldy, unreliable, and required a pinion mount with a crew.  The Winchester 1894 was not something amazing or special in TODAY's view, although it's a fine hunting and brush gun, but at the time, it was a very reliable, very powerful, and very easily employed weapon.

But compared to the simple weapon system stats in Strange Aeons, its seems to be over the top:
It have longer range then a Bolt action rifle.
It have more firepower then a Elephant gun.
It shoot faster then the machine gun due too no "Ready"-special rule.

It has an equivalent range with the bolt action. Lever-action rifles were meant to be a REPLACEMENT for bolt actions due to a much higher rate of fire but retaining the locking-bolt action of bolt actions. Lever actions ARE bolt actions, but just faster.

More "firepower" than an elephant gun is most assuredly in the eye of the beholder. If you only look at the ability to kill a soft target, then the EG wins every time. But if you consider the ability of a recruit-level solider to effectively hit a target? Hell no. It requires a super-trained, very strong marksman to fire one effectively. In fact, the EG should've had the "Hard To Aim" special ability, which gives a +2 DEX (making it harder to hit a target) power. Although that power doesn't exist.

As for the rate of fire, perhaps you're right. I was looking at the difference between a bolt action and a lever rifle, primarily. It can fire 3 aimed rounds as quickly as a bolt action in the same time. So that's why I bumped it up - it's a bolt action that fires like a semi-auto.

So its actually firing 4D per round if you use it in both actions, which aren't possible with a Ready weapon and don't make me talk about its ability to make shots when alert.

To be honest, I didn't look at the ROF of a machinegun, I looked at the ROF of the bolt action and Thompson. I can't fix things that weren't considered by Uncle Mike, but I can make them as close to reality as I can. I mean, look at the .22 pistol...it has a 2D rate of fire. Does that make it equivalent or better than a LMG? The Double Barrel Shotgun? See what I mean? If you look at the Thompson, it's WAY better than the LMG from that perspective.

When I make weapons for SA (or any game, for that matter), I have to find the balance. I have to abstract things into the weapon that I can't change in the rules.

I always seen the "ready"-rule as both loading time, but also the time it takes to make an aimed shot over longer ranges.

You'd be mistaken there. There's really no such thing as an aimed shot with a .30 Lewis or other SA-era LMG. They are primarily suppression weapons meant to keep heads down while infantry or tanks advance.

Also the quite limited range of the bold action rifle in Strange Aeons, is as I see it also because generally battling with cultist and hunting monsters is happening at night, and the darkness limits your vision/range.

Quite true, especially since night sights weren't really invented yet. But if that were the case, the effective range of any gun is limited to what you can SEE, which isn't in the rule set, so I have to take into account what IS in the rules, not what ISN'T, if you get my meaning.

It seems more of a personal darling for yourself, then it fits into the game balance IMHO, and it is a "jump the shark" moment for your very fine campaign.

Not remotely on the former. It is battle tested and is also one of the most prevalent hunting rifles in history. It is known as the "rifle that won the West" in America. So, it's not magical, so much as one hell of a great rifle, known worldwide.

It would be more fitting for your campaign to make up some special rules or event, then just giving the threshold team a super weapon which literately breaks the rule system in Strange Aeons. My gaming group would loose interest in the game, if your rifle was introduced.

Sounds like you game with Min/Max guys. I also would note that this is more than likely true because more "Game is broken" threads have been started by you than anyone else. Not complaining - just noting. Seems like they don't get that this is a STORYTELLING game more than a Warhammer-style "I'll kick your ass" game.

I have always has the opinion that in any miniature game, especially skirmish size games, if the normal "soldier" with his standard weapon can't do anything, and really just are useless fillers, and you need super heroes with portable howitzers as standard weapons just to be able do anything, its not a game worth bothering with.

*sigh*. Bergh, Threshold Agents (and your character) are NOT just average soldiers. These are highly specialized, elite soldiers hand picked by a government agency to defeat the greatest threats the world has ever known. World-ending threats.

You should consider these things before talking about how broken things are...it's not a game of beating your friends to prove how awesome you are, it's first and foremost an adventure game about living out stories. If you go into a game thinking it's something it's not, you shouldn't be surprised when it disappoints you.

I do value your input, though! We need grumpy guys with complaints to make things better - a lot of your points are very valid.

[Bergh]

You having all my point upside down, and hanging on single words.

My beef with your Winchester rifle, is not that it is superiors on one aspect, its superior in ALL aspect. a 0.22 have 2D rate of fire, but then it got nothing else.
I was just trying to say that when making new weapons you will have too see what fits into the basic mechanics in the rules, else you will have to chance a few main things generally.
You still defend that your gun should have MORE range then a normal bolt action rifle, is just to make it more "super"?...don't get it.

And about the "ready" action, it was not meant As a "as is" sentence, I'm perfectly aware of that a HMG are supposed to be aimed, and the ready action are supposed to say they are turning the whole gun, loading it or what ever takes a bit more time.

And my gaming group is NOT max/min guys, they prefer the good story of a game, as said before, your rare-drop weapon would make us loose the interest in the game. And I see your style of the game as Warhammer'ish where its all bout getting the best gun in the game system.

And your "*sign" is quite provocative for me, you have totally turned my point up side down. In Strange Aeons an agent is an Threshold "Normal soldier", I quite understand that fluff-vise Threshold agents are the few selected few. I'm talking thematics, and the generally mechanics in games, In many warhammer games your super heroes are the only way to win, the normal soldier don't really do anything then die, even if you actually did buy an halbard for him, shy not just skip the normal rank-and-file models and just make it an arena of superheroes battling it out....

That a "super police man" as a Threshold agent is, with a powerful gun as a .45 is logically can't even wound another humanoid if he has taking all the +Con options he can is ludicrous! this is my point why does you need a Naval gun battery to have a decent chance of wounding someone?
I prefer that civilians with the .22 still can do anything.

Finally you are accusing me of not understanding anything about understanding its an adventure game living out stories.... every other post I write I argument with that I prefer the good story and such.... Can't discuss things in this way, you are taking my own opinion and using it against me, don't understand it.

-------------------------------------
Think We should stop here, I think you are on purpose, are turning each thing around to fit your own argument, first you say my argument is not valid compared to the rules, and then its wrong because of the fluff background of the game.

And the haggling about the ready action and taking a example and putting into another specific context for a specific weapon system, is a low blow, I'm perfectly sure you understand my sentence as a broader example, I even in the same line gave different reason why "ready"-rule could be.  

And shouting out im the person with most "the game is broken" posts is also a bit low, year that's right! and I'm proud of it, I care about one of my favourite games, and I'm a quite systematic person who easily spots holes and weakness in a system. And instead of just accepting it, im trying to call up the creators of the game, so the next version of the game can be tweaked.

I was giving you a good precise criticism, instead of just listening and reflecting, you have lost sight of the subject and aiming at the person and twisting it around so you can "win"....fine you win, your super-gun is perfect and I shout up! And we can surely agree, if you  want that I'm not answering your threads any more.

I just hope that the developers of Strange Aeons aren't going to focus on a specific super gun or the reliance of super guns just to give anyone a scratch.

sorry for bothering you, superflytnt.
 




  

[superflytnt]

I wasn't attempting to be provocative in any way, and I certainly don't try to turn your words against you.

i was explaining the reason I did what I did, amd in fact, I wasn't even aware I was in an argument.

[LidlessEye]

Haven't had a chance to read this through completely, but I very much like what I'm seeing on the first glance over.  Love that mission progression diagram!  I'll have to adapt that for future "branching" campaigns.

For what it's worth, we've always intended Strange Aeons very much as a pulp-ish, story-oriented game about a fairly heroic batch of mere mortals (well trained, but still just human!) throwing themselves into battle with unspeakable forces from beyond.  Sure, you can blow up a few tentacled horrors, but in the end you're probably going to go insane and die.  Such is the life of a Threshold operative!  The game was never intended to be a realistic simulation, hence why we've never been overly concerned with having a weapon list that goes beyond basic categories and archetypes, or goes to any great lengths to reflect the real-world capabilities of specific weapon types.  I can't speak for any of the other designers, but I've personally never even handled a firearm, much less fired one, so my knowledge is strictly academic.  Weapons I design are therefore intended to fulfil a game role more than reflect the realistic operation of an actual device.  The Elephant Gun is a prime example here: it did actually have an "Inaccurate" -1 Dex caveat in its initial incarnation, as well pushing the firing model backwards 1" (Mike rejected this latter rule as too cartoonish, and rightly so), but we simplified the rules to make it more straightforward to use, and not so unwieldy that nobody would ever want to field it.  Not to say that our way is the best way, or that players aren't of course free to tweak and modify the game to their own preferences - just that this is the perspective we tend to come from when designing.

On the subject of the Winchester, it does look a little uber at first glance.  Based on the stats, it looks like a 5-6BP piece of gear.  To be fair, it's very difficult to obtain, and I certainly don't have any objections to rewarding a player for conquering very stiff odds.  Still, I do wonder about the 2D rate.  The removal of Ready is already a powerful bump over a Bolt Action, and 2D just opens the door to a veritable hail of bullets delivered from a range at which the firing model can barely be retaliated against.  Not necessarily a problem for a unique weapon that can't be simply purchased, but not something I'd ever personally like to see employed en masse in the game.

One thing I've toyed with is the idea of a "Rapid Fire" category for some weapons, which would allow a variable rate of fire at the expense of a dexterity penalty: 1D at base Dex, 2D at -1 Dex, and so forth.  I think this would be more applicable to things like the Tommy and .30 Cal, mind.  I'm also the guy that tries to complicate things mechanically though, and I think Mike's tendency to keep it simple is really one of the greatest strengths of the game.

[superflytnt]

With the Elephant Gun, I think that making it have a requirement to use such as "Must have DEX 3+ or CON 5 or better to use" or something would be a simple way to add a little bit of complexity to the choices in building characters (one would start using buffs when they gain skills to have the weapon available).

I really like the idea of rapid fire...the Thompson and LMG are quite overpowered in this game and I'd think that if a 2nd edition comes to fruition, that you rebalance both the CON and meditate a little on how the weapons should interact with one another from a comparison standpoint. You can't have a 2D .22 pistol that can fire at a higher effective rate than a LMG. Thematically it doesn't even make sense, right? Unless you have a "sustained fire" rule for the LMG that says the Ready action is only required the FIRST time you fire upon a target, or after moving. If a guy has a LMG and is in an entrenched position, gun on pinion mount, buddy sitting there with a belt....well, that doesn't take an extra action to fire again. It's set up, ready to go. But a .22 revolver is faster to fire? Just doesn't fit.

This is how I view the Winny: Either use it or exclude it. I wrote the campaign for my group, and it's a fun and exciting reward that makes the town scenario TENSE AS HELL. Each civilian that dies carries a very real penalty and there's a reason I leaned it so hard toward the Lurkers. If you can pull it off, you DESERVE to get the gun. And it probably should be a 5BP gun, I totally agree there.

This is kind of what I was trying to explain to Bergh, I guess I failed - these conversations aren't confrontational, they're CONVERSATIONAL. We're just tossing opinions out there and seeing what we can all do to make the game better. No reason to get all butt-hurt. We're all cool here!

[Mr. Peabody]

Very much looking forward to playing out this campaign... I think I'll have to use my collection of HO scale buildings for the 'town terrain', but beggars can't be choosers. 

[Mathyoo]

I'd just like to add distances shouldn't be converted as scale of the models as it would make gaming completely non practical.

[Brummie Thug]

I'd just like to add distances shouldn't be converted as scale of the models as it would make gaming completely non practical.

I agree completely with that

[superflytnt]

I agree completely with that

How so? If 6 feet is 1", then a pistol is effective to around 8" (48 feet is an ace shot), and most rifles that are field effective to 200 feet work out to 33".

What's a better way? I've actually thought long and hard about this and I'm still vexed.

[Mathyoo]

The way you explain it is the better way. The problem I see with unlimited range is just that. While it is more realistic, I don't believe it translates to games correctly.

I'd say you got your "fact" wrong. While48 feet is an ace for the pistol, its maximum effective range would be as far as 150 feet, so 25". Granted, I couldn't hit an elephant on that range, but we assume people are trained with their weapons. Rifles could be used to at least 600 feet and up to double that (terrain permitted), which really takes whole table. So with abstracting the distances you'd get what "feels right" on the table top. It is same thing with the size of buildings.

Now, not that I am saying your ideas are wrong, but I still think realism is very abstract in gaming. Making things too realistic often complicates rules too much for "most people".

[superflytnt]

I'll concede that lots of good shooters practice pistol shooting (target shooting) at 25 yards. So, 75 feet or 13" at 28 mm scale.

I get what you're saying about abstraction in games, though. I guess the problem with the 1894 is that it is built on a real-world model where the other guns aren't. Except for the Tesla and other superguns, that is.

[Mathyoo]

I totally get it, but putting it to fit the rest of the weapons might be better for general use. I like where youre going with it, however. I was thinking about a profile for (semi-auto) carbine, but apparently I didn't write anything down. It was quite like your 1894, but short range because of the compactness of weapons. I think now 1894 just comes out overpowered and wouldn't fit in unless other weapons would be redone. I think a bolt action without ready would work fine...perhaps also keep the D2 ROF but that is also quite powerful very fast.