28mm or eqivalent M41 walker light tank

[dsmith]

K gents looking for any thing close to this in any scale from 1/48 threw 1/56 th any body know of any company making these....they will be for my musorian forces and other conflicts.....
thanks
D

[carlos marighela]

I have a Japanese tin plate toy M41 that I picked up some time ago and did some simple conversion work to. It's by no means perfect but it's a pretty good representation once you supply a new barrel and cover the mantlet with some metal foil. It's supposedly 1/50 but in truth it feels a fair bit bigger. Then again M41s are fairly tall beasts, I spent quite a bit of time photographing the ones at the Conde de Linhares military museum in Rio.

When I get home I'll dig out the manufacturers name although I did post it here before. i might even take a snap for scale purposes if I get the time. Two flies in the ointment. Firstly it cost me an arm and a leg, secondly it's the only example I've ever seen, despite assiduous searching. Nobody else makes anything close in a scale that matches 28mm.

[dsmith]

Thanks Carlos...yeah the only thing I turned up was an ancient aurora model kit 65 dollars is a little steep and now its gone.....so my search continues.epics would be welcome thank you
D

[Arlequín]

I'm afraid it will be a fruitless search... as you've discovered, the only one anywhere near useful is the old Aurora kit. I actually had one as a kid too.

Despite most other Vietnam era American vehicles being available, the M41 is one that has slipped through the net, probably because it was only used by the ARVN. ARVN figures are also thin on the ground too though, so no surprise there.

Brent from Company B was talking about making one a while back though.

Even in 20mm they are rare. There's an expensive resin kit out there somewhere and RH Models offer one sporadically, but that's about it. 

[sandsmodels]

a company called crown used to do one with rubber band tracks and a motor ect but hard to find now
i once bought 6 of them in one go from a local shop never saw them again.
i still have i turret and some wheels from one somewhere, maybe ebay?

[dsmith]

Well I figured this would be a tall order...I am going to continue to search as it seems the royal. Thai army and several other SE Asia countries still have them in the inventory,however I still have a couple of cadillac stingrays to complete from hlbs so my allies will have armor support.
   I really love the old aurora kits just won a centurian love it! here in the States lots of the old 70's kits are making it back to market on rerelease,  so lets keep our fingers crossed....
    Shawn sounds like a job for you perhaps.....given your already expansive line of 20 mm a new release in 28 mm would be welcome and since you already have the turret your half way there
   Thanks guys D

[CompanyB]

This is something we can consider later this summer.  Moderns have not been a good seller for us at all, so it's been hard to justify producing more, given the costs involved.  The larger models like the Stryker are just too expensive to make in the states and ship and sell at a affordable price point.

I have a new partnership with someone in the UK that may help change that though.  So once we get the first batch of our lineup started, new models can start to be added to the line.

I have about 7 new modern models already created in 3D with test prints waiting to be painted just waiting to be put into production.  The M41 is one of them.

[dsmith]

Thanks Brent I am still hopeful for your German weisl release.....that is such a cool little vehicle.As for the M -41 sounds a long way off so my search will continue for either the aurora kit or if Carlos can come up with the name of the one he has may try it out...as it will be up graded...
D

[Arlequín]

Moderns have not been a good seller for us at all, so it's been hard to justify producing more, given the costs involved.

Shaun of Sands Models was saying pretty much the same thing a while back.

I have noticed that the perversity of things within the 'Modern' period, seems to be that for some wars you can get figures, but few vehicles (e.g. Portuguese Colonial Wars, Rhodesia), while for others, there are vehicles but no figures (e.g. Korea). I always thought that this disparity would effect sales of both in this context.

The M41 is pretty much the 'missing vehicle' for Vietnam as far as 28mm goes (although the M38 Jeep is in the running too)... although again, there are few ARVN figures around to match it with.

However, I'm actually surprised 'Ultra-Modern' is not a seller, despite being currently quite fashionable and having a fair range of both vehicles and figures across the board. Okay they were never going to sell in the same quantities as WW2, but still.

'Cold War' era models are therefore likely to be even poorer sellers then... lucky me.  

[dsmith]

I agree whole heartily on the M 38 would love one its still all over the third world in its CJ version would be great to get some of these cold war pieces of kit....for sure....I was able to find it in diecast once so maybe lightening will strike twice for me. Would love to see an lvt-5 for Nam and maybe cold war gone hot in the carribean. But I digress.lots to wish for.
D

[sandsmodels]

Shaun of Sands Models was saying pretty much the same thing a while back.

I have noticed that the perversity of things within the 'Modern' period, seems to be that for some wars you can get figures, but few vehicles (e.g. Portuguese Colonial Wars, Rhodesia), while for others, there are vehicles but no figures (e.g. Korea). I always thought that this disparity would effect sales of both in this context.

The M41 is pretty much the 'missing vehicle' for Vietnam as far as 28mm goes (although the M38 Jeep is in the running too)... although again, there are few ARVN figures around to match it with.

However, I'm actually surprised 'Ultra-Modern' is not a seller, despite being currently quite fashionable and having a fair range of both vehicles and figures across the board. Okay they were never going to sell in the same quantities as WW2, but still.

'Cold War' era models are therefore likely to be even poorer sellers then... lucky me.  

the main great sellers for us in 28mm have been the jeeps, pick ups and land rovers, which is exactly the things that really should go well in 28mm it is ideal for fast attack vehicles like small 4x4's, one of the reasons we have stayed away from doing tanks and ifv's in 28mm, the table is really too small for them as most club games are relatively quite small affairs, even the escape committee clubs 13ft table if too small for tanks in 28mm scales, imho.
we have considered the cougar 6 & mastiff but again I doubt the sales are enough to warrant doing one whilst it would take the same time and effort for about 3 new 20mm vehicles we know would sell.
even our 20+ club has struggled to get even 1 anywhere near the 20 needed for consideration in mastering!
28mm sales to 28mm are about 100 to 1, maybe even more like 150 to 1.
even if we did any new 28mm vehicles they would be to 1/56th and not 1/48th!
shaun

[Arlequín]

I would generally agree that 28mm is largely a poor scale for armoured warfare of any type (no matter which ground scale your rules are using), with the exception where they were used as close range mobile (or static) strong points (Vietnam, Angola) or convoy escort etc. The terrain would of course dictate your engagement ranges in that situation though in any case.

Still, regardless, if they don't sell, I wouldn't make them either.

From a customer perspective I can't even say that I would buy a platoon's worth of modern tanks in 28mm ever, or in the case of APCs, trucks and jeeps, any more than I really needed to move my platoon's worth of men about. There's only so much money I can justify spending to myself after all.

So between producers not making their outlay back and customers not actually wanting much in the way of product, it's a bit of an impasse.

[Arrigo]

Well when I started my 28mm mania I was planning on platoons... I have a full platoon of BMP-2.... then I realized your ar not going to use as many vehicles as in smaller scales. Still I like to have some to accompany my infantry. In urban games a couple of vehicles, usually an APC and a tank are quite eye openers...  and attract a lot of fire, last wednesday I was discussing this rather bad tendency with a former Centurion Troop Commander who served in Korea (and that was aware of my existence... whow!    ) .

I have discovered I ma not so fond of light (Jeeps/Trucks/FAVs) vehicles in 28mm. The normal distances of engagement with them require large table and their speed and maneuver abilities are wasted. Well if you are going in close range you want to take thick skins with you. 

[dsmith]

I for one can see the producers point ...large sales of between company and platoon strenght in 28 mm would one be cost prohibitive to the general consumer...so they tend to go to the smaller footprint vehicles I.e. 20 15 mm and two game space size would prohibit that size of force...most gaming being done on tables 4' x 8' .which isn't saying anything new of course this has been echoed repeatedly threw out these forums,
 However the need to fill out the huge gaps in modern MBT and combat vehicle...is the issue from post 45 on ...that being said moderns will never keep pace with WWII but that hasnt stopped producers from making every varient of the panzer IV,  its my opinion that if the market is there for moderns that it may be what is being offered not so much the offering...if you get my meaning.
   I tend to game on a more cinematic scope so the idea of a gruop of grunts moving down a rubble strewn street with armor / AFV support just adds to the realisim of the game..as for contact distances....sure we could never get the 2mile ground scale kills equivalant on most of our tables as was demonstrated during both gulf wars...however those were the exception not the rule most engagements are 100 - 450 meters with the longer ranges being 800- 1000.... so that being said would lead to MBT / AFVs as support platforms in 28 mm. We may never be able to have the hoards of AFVs swarming threw the fulda gap in this scale either,  but gaming scenes within that are well within the realm of both the cost versus size limit threshold..but we as modern gamers still have to have the kits to do this..I am no producer..so I wont comment on that side of things at all...it just seems that in my personal searchings for modern kit that from 45 -threw today there has been a focus on obscure vehicles as opposed to more standard kit....or an abundence of the same type( not a bad thing mind you) and like was stated elsewhere these items were not supported by figures or vice versa not supported by vehicles. Its again my opinion again for what its
D

[Arlequín]

Fair points both...

To be honest, I have little use for tanks in my own gaming and would just largely be happy with the smaller vehicles and APCs. I have to agree with dsmith, that it might be what is offered that is the problem and is what I was saying when I was on about 'figures but no vehicles' and 'vehicles but no figures'.

WW2 gamers are not so different to modern gamers, there are just more of them, enough to apparently support the production of an M26 Pershing or two... seriously a Pershing??? Used for perhaps the last three or four months of WW2 and they get the choice of two models from different manufacturers? (The oddity is that you can't get any decent US Infantry in 1943 combat fatigues though). I admit to being a touch jealous of them, especially that there seems almost no vehicle that isn't available for them somewhere. 

Meanwhile my Eureka Portuguese have to hoof it through the bush because I can't get hold of a Unimog truck (404, 406 or 416), at least not without selling a child to fund an old Dinky die-cast off e-bay. The Unimog, vehicle of choice in Africa for over fifty years and still going strong, but "nada", as my little lead heroes are no doubt muttering. No doubt somebody else's Rhodesians are in the same boat.

There are more M113 personnel carriers (in just the basic model) out there, than there are Vietnam figure ranges and indeed these at least equal the models of basic M3 Halftracks available to WW2 gamers. Divide these by the numbers of 'modern' gamers and perhaps this is a reason for experiencing low sales... on this type at least. I could mostly kit out an Israeli or Egyptian/Syrian force's vehicles for 1967 or 1973 if I chose to... but I can't get any Israeli or Arab Infantry, except for c.1982, so why would I bother?

I imagine that the situation is somewhat similar with more recent conflicts and the glut of Humvee models out there. How many of the same models can a niche interest support?

I do get what both Brent and Shaun are saying though and I imagine that it is the same with other manufacturers. If even a 'build club' hosted by a pro-active manufacturer can't get enough support over time for a particular model, how many casual sales are likely on top of this?