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Author Topic: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread  (Read 1290102 times)

Offline Grumpy Gnome

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11490 on: June 10, 2021, 02:55:52 PM »
yes, GG - prob. not the place for such discussion - but then maybe it should be, the way things are going.

bit suprised by the replies I'm reading, tbh. But I guess I should take some heart from them, and hope they're not wilful naivety, and I'm being OTT.
I'll leave it there.

Well, that’s the challenge isn’t it? Part of me is biting my tongue because I want to express myself and my concerns after years of being gagged due to my professions. Now I am technically free to speak my mind  and I hate to leave something unaddressed because it feels like complicity.

+++deleted++++

But I want to keep to the rules of this forum and avoid putting a target on the backs of my family.

So the rest of this post was deleted and my tongue is firmly bitten again.

Home of the Grumpy Gnome

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Offline jon_1066

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11491 on: June 10, 2021, 04:09:52 PM »
I dont think its intentional, but the problem is your mixing a public that can't infer that the protagonists (ie: the impetium) can also be bad guys, whilst the head office wants to steamline it into a very easy to sell product.

I suppose this comes down to how much is an artist responsible for mis-interpretation of their work. 

It's kind of difficult for me to see people looking at the WH40K Imperium and thinking it looks like a good idea any more than people looking at Ork society and thinking it is a shame Orks don't get to build our airliners or that Plague marines should be our medics.


Offline jetengine

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11492 on: June 10, 2021, 09:55:25 PM »
Some are wannabe fascists*, others like the aesthetic on a surface level not realising how shitty it actually is, alot  are suckered by "heroic space marines" not realising that (to us) they should really be terrifying monsters with a near psychotic level of zealoutry. Remember, there are Wehraboos and those whom LOVE the Empire from Star wars a bit too much.

*I know, I know, no politics, yet its not hard to say wannabe nazis would like something that uses some of their rhetoric (even if the point is "Imperium are evil"

Offline Mammoth miniatures

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11493 on: June 11, 2021, 08:56:33 PM »
I suppose this comes down to how much is an artist responsible for mis-interpretation of their work. 

It's kind of difficult for me to see people looking at the WH40K Imperium and thinking it looks like a good idea any more than people looking at Ork society and thinking it is a shame Orks don't get to build our airliners or that Plague marines should be our medics.

I know plenty of people who think the starship troopers movie is not only a serious action movie, But also an excellent idea for how to run a society. The same people also think police should be more like judge dredd and think call of duty games are politcally neutral. some people are seriously context blind when it comes to engaging with fiction. It's hard to say how much an artist needs to be aware of this, and for the most part artists will pitch their work to a set audience. GW is in the unique and awkward position of being a major british success story , the face of the industry, and the owner of a sci fi IP that is reaching star wars levels of cultural pentration. I think in a way their desire to reduce 40k to a more black and white morality comes from that, but the result is a somewhat awkward situation in which your new "good" guys have all the trappings and ideologies of bad guys.

Offline Gibby

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11494 on: June 11, 2021, 09:22:29 PM »
I think most people can separate fiction from reality, and the overwhelming majority of 40k fans are happy to enjoy the setting as escapism. I think the current trend of fretting about how fantasy stories will turn our children into whatever flavour of villain is an annoying throwback to the Satanic Panic of the 80s. The sort of people who take 40k so seriously as to want to model reality on it are probably so far from being a threat that a steep hill or particularly large staircase would defeat them. Just my two cents. Honestly, I think that 90% of these "40k fascists" are just shitposting meme fans, and even if not, the idea that they're a real threat in any way to society is laughable.

I hope that straddled the right side of the line in terms of forum rules.

2000AD did the "America" storyline after they realised that some of the fanbase were unironic fans of the Justice Department. A casual reminder here and there should be enough, but at the end of the day, extreme minds will always find something to latch onto - it's unfair to blame creators too much when that happens.

Offline jetengine

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11495 on: June 12, 2021, 10:24:28 AM »
I think most people can separate fiction from reality, and the overwhelming majority of 40k fans are happy to enjoy the setting as escapism. I think the current trend of fretting about how fantasy stories will turn our children into whatever flavour of villain is an annoying throwback to the Satanic Panic of the 80s. The sort of people who take 40k so seriously as to want to model reality on it are probably so far from being a threat that a steep hill or particularly large staircase would defeat them. Just my two cents. Honestly, I think that 90% of these "40k fascists" are just shitposting meme fans, and even if not, the idea that they're a real threat in any way to society is laughable.

I hope that straddled the right side of the line in terms of forum rules.

2000AD did the "America" storyline after they realised that some of the fanbase were unironic fans of the Justice Department. A casual reminder here and there should be enough, but at the end of the day, extreme minds will always find something to latch onto - it's unfair to blame creators too much when that happens.

Whilst I disagree with your first paragraph, you'd be right with your second if GW actually bothered. The closest you get is an occasional note of "Oh yeah, and then the Imperium destroyed a fully functioning Democracy for simply existing". 2000AD had the balls to look at their fanbase dead in the eyes and go "The Judges are horrible, horrible people you dolts, remember that" .

We need a novel from the perspective of an ordinary person on a functioning world that gets invaded by the Imperium for colonization, watch the Guard commit warcrimes because of their indoctrination, watch the worlds leaders open the hand of peace only to get gunned down, witness the brutal terror of Space Marines tearing apart any resistance and gunning down protesters. Paint it in neon letters "THE IMPERIUM IS AWFUL"

Part of the problem as well, imo,  Is the darkening of the Tau. Fans justify the Imperium with "Well its a shitty universe, so you have to act awful" but the Tau were a clear example otherwise, yes there was some odd shady elements but on the whole pretty good. Then they became a more sophisticated communist regume with mind control, dissidents dragged away in the night and sterilization.

Offline Storm Wolf

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11496 on: June 12, 2021, 10:44:26 AM »
"IN THE GRIMDARKNESS OF THE FAR, FAR FUTURE - NO ONE WILL HEAR YOU SCREAM!"

Or sadly even care if you do!

Luckily it's just a game

However, my real fear for future generations when I am long dead and gone is how close is reality going to be to those envisaged in the Aliens and Blade runner/"Do Androids dream of Electric Sheep" universes?

Shudder :-[

Glen
Knowing my luck, I would throw the pin and still be holding the grenade - gulp!

Offline Grumpy Gnome

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11497 on: June 12, 2021, 01:12:59 PM »
Jetengine, I agree about the shift in the tone of the Tau lore. It turned a faction I could identify with into one I could not.

My problem with how GW presents the Imperium is not that it is horrible but that it presents the universe as so horrible that the Imperium has to be horrible for humanity to survive. Torture, genocide, unwilling sacrifices with fanatical religious overtones. The ends justifies the means is glamorized. Being as horrible as possible is placed on a pedestal and praised.

Dang, I am running the risk of getting political here.

I could go on all day about how I feel glamorization of criminality has caused a terrible problem in US and UK society from a law enforcement perspective. Or how glamorization of dishonorable/unethical behavior in movies like the Dirty Dozen, Inglorious Bastards, and Fury has affected culture in the US Army from a military perspective.

Much as I love Firefly it has the baggage of perhaps unwittingly playing up support for Neo-Confederatism by helping perpetuate the “noble cause” myth.

Admittedly I feel a bit hypocritical because glamorizing war itself is an issue for a number of people. For as long as I can remember I have been drawn to military conflict. I remember watching Sands of Iwo Jima with my Dad at four years old and wanting go to a military school at five, which disappointing to me did not happen.

How I approach violence in media in regards to my son has been strongly challenged by my wife, who has a very different cultural background for me. From my perspective how sex and violence are treated is reversed between US and German culture, ie what is the bigger taboo.

But I have to ask myself how do I feel about my son one day consuming GW products knowing GW currently dominates so much of the hobbies done in our household. I certainly feel better about the moral and ethical examples set in the Tolkien universe, which even if imperfect sets a better tone than 40K, AoS and even WHFB.

In a way it is the Star Wars Stormtrooper, the Pirate, the Harley Quinn on the 7 year olds lunch thermos, t-Shirt and bedspread. Why do we create such cool images for things we should not want to emulate?

I doubt GW has an agenda to push fascist ideals but I think they have shown a willingness to not really care if their products end up doing so as long as they make money from it.

The thing is I enjoy hobbies that often glamorize violence. I am not a pacifist. To me there is a time and place for violence, contextless key. I only hold GW to the same standard I hold myself to when my son asks me why certain characters do certain things to each other in stories. Whether it is a cop arresting someone, a wolf wanting to eat Goldilocks and the three little pigs, or a supervillain attacking a superhero. We have not had to address war yet, he is just a bit too young and I doubt Mrs. GG is going to let him watch the Sands of Iwo Jima with me any time soon.

I hope I have not gone too far into politics but these are core concerns I have about GW. I do not feel it is an incredibly ethical corporation but it is immensely influential due to its remarkable success. I do not feel GW does enough to address diversity and inclusion and not doing so is a waste of that immense influence.

And this all impacts what Mrs. GG and I buy from GW or recommend to others. So I think it may be relevant enough to include in this thread… but the moderators may feel otherwise. If so, I am prepared to redact the contentious elements.

EDIT: In regards to the Satanic Panic of the 80’s and D&D. The concern was exaggerated and misplaced but that does not diminish the risk of irresponsible immersive role play on the psyche. I am far from an expert but since role playing can be a powerful training aid and therapeutic tool and any tool can be abused to become dangerous it is not something that should be used irresponsibly.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 02:20:23 PM by Grumpy Gnome »

Offline Gibby

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11498 on: June 12, 2021, 09:36:52 PM »
Whilst I disagree with your first paragraph, you'd be right with your second if GW actually bothered.

Fair enough. I kinda wish I hadn't got involved in this discussion, I suppose that essentially we all see things in varying degrees of seriousness, and I think most people can and do separate fiction and reality when the fiction is so far removed from the real world. I'm hereby bowing out and sticking to very much hobby-only discussions (which this one is very much only on the border of, as I feared).

« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 09:47:05 PM by Gibby »

Offline Grumpy Gnome

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11499 on: June 13, 2021, 08:22:02 AM »
I know I am long winded and preachy. Not my best attributes.

But I also know I do not have all the answers.

I know different people have different perspectives, different experiences. Maybe I am wrong about GW. I hope I am. I have mates that have worked for GW and suspect some still do despite having lost contact with them over the years. I have disliked a number of GW corporate and artistic decisions. But I am also aware of the joy the company has helped create. I appreciate the glee with which I painted my Crimson Fist Space Marines back in the 80’s.

Often I get wrapped up in my philosophical self reflection as I try to understand feelings of guilt or try to avoid feeling like a hypocrite.

Maybe part of my issue about being inclusiveness with GW is that too often I feel like there is no room in the 40k universe for me. No one I can cheer on or root for without feeling guilty about it.

Maybe it is irritation that it feels like GW panders to the part of their customer base that likes the cynicism and bitterness of a lore change for the Bretonnian religious faith into a sham, obere manipulation by the Wood Elves.

But maybe I resent that the change in lore of Bretonnian culture leans into class inequality and oppression rather than glossing over that to focus on Arthurian images of knightly glamor. So again I feel guilty about what I once enjoyed.

And clearly I do not feel strongly that I am boycotting GW or encouraging others to do so.

I just think it is important to apply critical thinking to all things, including games, and wonder, “Can I, can we, do better?”

It was good that GW disavowed Arch Warhammer. However I would like to feel that it was a genuine decision and not just a cynical sacrifice of a no longer useful means to their desired ends.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 07:03:09 PM by Grumpy Gnome »

Offline Bloggard

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11500 on: June 13, 2021, 01:56:57 PM »
... The sort of people who take 40k so seriously as to want to model reality on it are probably so far from being a threat that a steep hill or particularly large staircase would defeat them. Just my two cents. Honestly, I think that 90% of these "40k fascists" are just shitposting meme fans, and even if not, the idea that they're a real threat in any way to society is laughable. ...

was going to keep my trap shut, but seeing folk here having a reasonable and thoughtful discussion, somewhat prompted by my postings, thought I'd just comment on your bit above Gibby.

On its own terms (your paragraphical sentiment) I would agree with you entirely, ... but the effect of GW's presentation that I'm worrying about, is a more subtle and yet mundane real-world thing.
Sort of drip-drip-drip if you like. Something, which, consciously or not by design, can feed into larger movements and attitudes. And I'm seeing plenty of evidence of the growth of those attitudes.

GW are kind of getting caught in no-mans's land it seems to me - and I wonder if there really is a struggle within the company between those who would like to promote a more inclusive quality to the good guys (and sorry, but again, if anyone really thinks the imperium is generally (implicitly if you like) presented as anything other than the 'good guys', you really are in denial imo) and those that are sadly invested in another less tolerant world-view.

This is kind of borne out by the Gaunt's Ghosts thing I mentioned to begin with - interestingly the paint-jobs on the figures sort of (half-heartedly) suggest that inclusiveness, whereas the really crass graphical art-work couldn't any more clearly deny any such possibility.

anyhow, maybe this is all a bit OTT for a thread on the LAF ... dunno. Probably. But it says a lot for this forum, how it's gone so far!

It's a 'difficult' subject (I mean - Grumpy Gnome, I wouldn't, these days, agree with your pass for Tolkien, and I was quite the devotee in times past), to say the least.
And I can quite understand the 'oh for goodness sake, it's just a game / entertainment / fiction - get real' response.

thanks again for the comments and thoughts.

I should add that GG in his post one before his last above, puts thoughts and concerns of mine better than I could.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 04:54:22 PM by Bloggard »

Offline zemjw

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11501 on: June 19, 2021, 03:50:47 PM »
New Age of Sigmar starter set is up for pre-order Age of Sigmar: Dominion

I suppose £125 for 60 figures and rulebooks isn't too bad, although I don't see any signs of scenery pieces in the pictures. It's just a shame I'm not keen on the Sigmarine aesthetic :(

They had a weird queuing system first thing this morning, but they do seem to have enough sets that it hasn't turned into a one-off, limited edition release.

Offline beefcake

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11502 on: June 20, 2021, 04:28:35 AM »
Yeah, I noticed the queue thing too. Had to wait a short time to look. It was 6 minutes so I just left and came back about 20 minutews later, lost my place in the queue, queued up again and it was just 1 minute wait. Leaving you 10 minutes to make a purchase is a bit of a sneaky sales tactic (well, not sneaky really) Increase that FOMO by limiting your time online before your space is given to someone else.
I'm quite impressed by the set but have better things to spend my money on (like groceries).
I'm more and more impressed by their aesthetic lately and I'm a bit of a die hard 90's era fan. I'm being more and more swayed by plastic these days.


Offline Sir_Theo

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11503 on: June 20, 2021, 09:27:41 AM »
I'm more and more impressed by their aesthetic lately and I'm a bit of a die hard 90's era fan. I'm being more and more swayed by plastic these days.

I actively disliked the Age of Sigmar aesthetic early on, but I have to say now the range is a lot more fleshed out I am warming to a lot of the stuff now I see it in context. I dont think its for me (although I can definitely see a use for a Dwarf Airship....) but I appreciate it a lot more- and a lot of the stuff is extremely pretty- albeit impractical as a gaming piece imo.

That said I can't see a place for Age of Sigmar in my rules collection. But at least I can appreciate what they are doing now a bit more

Offline beefcake

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Re: The LAF Games Workshop Discussion Thread
« Reply #11504 on: June 20, 2021, 10:32:25 AM »
impractical as a gaming piece imo.

Yes indeed. Aside from the fiddly bits etc I can't stand miniatures with terrain sculpted for them to stand upon, the odd rock or skull to rest feet on is okay (if overdone) but A hole pillar that follows a gargoyle or angel creature around is a bit much for me. Spoils the toys lol.

 

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