Lances

[Hammers]

I've been reading about lance types and it seems like the British and the Imperial colonial troops used two types: bamboo or ash. Both kinds seem to have been used in all areas and by all troops. Ash seems to have been more common among the British troops, to no great surprise, I am sure.

Now, I also read in a post the the lances were design to break on impact. Is this true or a romantic notion taken from jousting? It seems a bit impractical to have a one off weapon like that. German Uhlan lances were made from tubular steel and must have beeen unlikely to snap.

And how WERE they used? Did they run the enemy through or did they stab at them? A bit of clarification on tactics would be appreciated.

[PeteMurray]

Bamboo lances might very well have been designed to break on impact, at least originally, since they cost very little to produce. Plus splintered bamboo is nasty stuff.

Frankly, though, the primary purpose of a lance charge is to scatter the infantry so that they can be ridden down later on. Classical shock effect stuff. I can't speak to what the drill manuals said, but I'd be very surprised if there were any lance casualties after 1900.

[Hammers]

*nods sagely* Right, right.

Well, there is likely to have been some (self inflicted?) casualties since the Germans, Austrians and Russians had plenty of Uhlan regiments throught out the Great War. The Brits had a few regiments to, including Bengal.

[Malamute]

I am sure I remember reading about how lancers were trained to withdraw the lance with a flick of the wrist after spearing the target.  I don't know how well this would work in practise though.
If you were lucky enough to deflect or survive the spearthrust, the lancer would be fair game for any sword armed opponent. A very difficult weapon to wield in close combat.
 I think they were used for shock factor. I for one don't fancy the idea of cavalry bearing down on me with a 9ft weapon with a long reach..

[PeteMurray]

*nods sagely* Right, right.

Well, there is likely to have been some (self inflicted?) casualties since the Germans, Austrians and Russians had plenty of Uhlan regiments throught out the Great War. The Brits had a few regiments to, including Bengal.

*puffs on pipe* Indeed. But! Just because a regiment is called an Uhlan doesn't make it one. You do need somewhere in the military to put the upper-class twits so that they can preen and be dashing in uniforms with absurd hats, and aviation hadn't gotten its cachet yet.

Much like the Disciple Thomas, I shall believe in lancers when I can probe the wounds they made with my own hands. 

I for one don't fancy the idea of cavalry bearing down on me with a 9ft weapon with a long reach.

I'm convinced the Mosin-Nagant rifle was specifically created by the Russians as a pike for just this reason.

[Plynkes]

The main weapons of the Uhlan during the Great War seem to have been the Eindecker, Albatros, and Dr.I.

[Westfalia Chris]

*puffs on pipe* Indeed. But! Just because a regiment is called an Uhlan doesn't make it one. You do need somewhere in the military to put the upper-class twits so that they can preen and be dashing in uniforms with absurd hats, and aviation hadn't gotten its cachet yet.

The main weapons of the Uhlan during the Great War seem to have been the Eindecker, Albatros, and Dr.I.

Pish-posh, I say! Back in our day, we had nothing but rocks and sticks, and all this new fashionable humbug will surely not catch on!

*gnaws on a dinosaur spare rib*

On a more serious note, I´d assume that lances were rather useful for patrol duty in the untamed wilderness. Of course, against modern firepower, I´d assume it a fool´s errand, although a lot of people like old Suchomlinnov  were not convinced of that in the early 1900s...

[Hammers]

*puffs on pipe* Indeed. But! Just because a regiment is called an Uhlan doesn't make it one. You do need somewhere in the military to put the upper-class twits so that they can preen and be dashing in uniforms with absurd hats, and aviation hadn't gotten its cachet yet.

*polishes his glasses*
This is most certainly true, especially your point about aviatric chivalry, as illustrated so vividly by Plynkes (LAF, 2007, post "FFFFF" etc.)

BUT, I have to disagree on one point. While it is true that most cavalry futictioned in a dismounted role on the Western Front, where the morass of trench warfare made cavalry charges impossible in the latter part of the war, circumstances were different on the Eastern Front and elsewhere, where the situation was less modern and forward looking. Lances could and maintained to be used the way god intended in those areas.

Much like the Disciple Thomas, I shall believe in lancers when I can probe the wounds they made with my own hands. 

I for one don't fancy the idea of cavalry bearing down on me with a 9ft weapon with a long reach.

I will disregard these statments. Disciple Thomas I do not know; Malamute is an academic charlatan who claimed a grant which should rightfully have been mine.

I'm convinced the Mosin-Nagant rifle was specifically created by the Russians as a pike for just this reason.

This may very well be, but a rifle, albeit with a fixed bayonette, used as formation pikes must surely fail miserably agains a cavalry charge. They are much to short.

[Malamute]

I for one don't fancy the idea of cavalry bearing down on me with a 9ft weapon with a long reach.

Malamute is an academic charlatan who claimed a grant which should rightfully have been mine.[/quote]

*Places ear trumpet close to left ear*. What did you say, sorry didn't catch that last comment.

I always thought Lancers were feared  primarily for the first strike reason and shock tactic charges. This  would have been particulary true in the C19th  and in the colonial theatres.Think  Charge of the 21st lancers at Ulundi and at Omdurman against the Fuzzies.Not so useful against machine guns and the ungentlemanly warfare of the early C20th.

[PeteMurray]

This may very well be, but a rifle, albeit with a fixed bayonette, used as formation pikes must surely fail miserably agains a cavalry charge. They are much to short.

I was trying to make a joke.

I will readily admit my knowledge of the Eastern Front is limited, and thus am forced to confess that I find lances implausible and thus am willing to dismiss them out of prejudice.

Lead Adventures Forum: Come for the minis, stay for the public self-criticism!

[Hammers]

I was trying to make a joke.

You have to understand that I am very, very dense. And slow on the uptake. I only got the Tomas joke after reading it five times. The Mosin Nagat joke still elludes me but give me a fortnight and I will get back to you. 

[Malamute]

This may very well be, but a rifle, albeit with a fixed bayonette, used as formation pikes must surely fail miserably agains a cavalry charge. They are much to short.

I was trying to make a joke.

I will readily admit my knowledge of the Eastern Front is limited, and thus am forced to confess that I find lances implausible and thus am willing to dismiss them out of prejudice.

Lead Adventures Forum: Come for the minis, stay for the public self-criticism!

I am confused now. :?Is this topic about Lancers in the great war or lancers in general. If it is about the latter I stand by my earlier points. I'm right, so there, charlaton or not

[Hammers]

I just have to cross reference this , whot I came across just now.

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=5765.0

Very interesting.

[Svennn]

Have you not read Flashman, shame on you gentlemen. It clearly demonstrates how to defeat the Afghan wielding a lance.

Must admit I agree with much of what has been said here already although in any cavalry charge the most fearful thing for the opposition was possibly the horse itself.

[PeteMurray]

You have to understand that I am very, very dense. And slow on the uptake. I only got the Tomas joke after reading it five times. The Mosin Nagat joke still elludes me but give me a fortnight and I will get back to you. 

The classic Mosin is just about 2 meters long when the bayonet is attached. I think that beats all rifles of the period for length. Curiously, unlike the rifles of most armies, the Mosin is more accurate when the bayonet is attached.

I concede everything else on lances after your link to Komarow.

*brushes dust off tweed jacket.*