Generic ruleset suggestions ?

[mcfonz]

I've done a lot with No Limits.  Some people say it's too complicated but I would say no more so that 2nd ed 40K. 

No Limits is ok but clunky.

I think the thing I hate the most is the action points system. For a small band skirmish game it is fine but when considering larger battles with units with mixed weaponry then I am not convinced it is smooth enough.

I did contemplate simplifying it but I found Fubar to be as good as anything although no points system, I do find it to be quite fun.

[tnjrp]

Defiance seems a bit too squad-oriented, but the rules themselves intrigued me and I'll keep the name for future reference

Yep, it's what it's really geared for. You can have a small team of elite "GIs", including a commander and/or hero fighting another similar team (or massed units of faceless oppressors of your choice) if you prefer but even in that case, most of the other guys apart from one or two will be the same. They will just all be doing their own thing and not acting as a squad even tho they count as one for morale purposes.

As for the semi-offical workaround to making all of your troops different (if you so prefer) is presented in this thread -- look for the comments of Demian Rose, the author of Defiance:
http://www.mj12games.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=471

There is also an official "genre modification" in the Defiance: Vital Ground full rulebook that allows you to create "supers", all of which are created and fielded as completely individual troopers on the tabletop. The limitation is that you can't make "wimpy supers" with it, in addition to obviously only being available in the full rules that aren't free.

[consectari]

I haven't tried it, but I'd bet you could use a good, generic RPG like GURPs if you chop out a bunch of the stuff that wouldn't have any application in a miniatures game.

I've heard of other people doing this, but usually with a genre specific RPG.  No reason it shouldn't work with a non-specific RPG.

[johnl5555]

  Hi tnjrp. I know you are a fan of Defiance. I have seen you post about them for years over at TMP. I also know that the rules are quite comprehensive. However, based on the fact they have been around for quite a few years I never hear anyone else discussing them. I don't see any posts about games using them, army lists, variant rules or frankly anything much (except once in a while at the official forum). I would guess that they simply don't have much if any, player base? So, that makes me curious as to what draws you to the rules? Do you still actively play them? Have you tried other sets? I checked out MJ12's Defiance forum. I think they only have about 200 posts on the rules since 2009.

Just curious.

Thanks,

John

[Marauder]

Vortex

There are around 180 different traits that can be added (both abilities and limiting liabilities) that build up in levels spread over pre-game, movement, transport, ranged combat, melee combat, defence, miscellaneous and post game.

... then there are  a raft of types, features and flaws for ranged and melee weapons and then armour too

... stances and styles for combat

highly customisable from simple cannon fodder to things with multiple characteristics and cross genre too

simultaneous combat (I hate the ... I swing and you just stand there until your turn and take it ... school of miniature combat)

I have only played a couple of games (happily we live in an age of bounteous goodness for all things wargamey but getting round to playing them all is a full time career) but enjoyed the rules  a lot

Loads of scenarios too.

So is Vortex good for fantasy as well as sci-fi (and everything in between)?  Does it do things larger than people - vehicles?  I know I ask too much.  Might have to pick this up.  Glad there is a PDF.

-Tim

[Ironworker]

No Limits is ok but clunky.

I think the thing I hate the most is the action points system. For a small band skirmish game it is fine but when considering larger battles with units with mixed weaponry then I am not convinced it is smooth enough.

I did contemplate simplifying it but I found Fubar to be as good as anything although no points system, I do find it to be quite fun.

I have played everything from 500 point to 4000 point skirmishes and not had any problem with the action point system.  Actually it's one of our favorite parts of the system.  It's hard to get used to at first but we picked it up in no time.  I'm not suggesting it's a perfect system but it has suited our purposes well and it's totally free.  I've looked at Fubar but I would rather have a point system game. 

[Marauder]

Crap - failed my willpower roll and now I own Vortex.  To say there are a lot of options is an understatement... will take some time to digest.

[johnl5555]

I have played No Limits a few times in the past. I also agree that it works pretty well with small games. But large games are clunky compared to other systems where you activate the squad and have set available actions to choose from. It does have greater flexibility of choice. But you pay a price for that. frankly, when I'm playing a platoon or three per side I don't want to have to worry about what Private Jones is doing. I'm worried about what my squads and or Platoons are. Fubar is a way better choice (amongst some others) for handling those larger games. I know since I have run Fubar games with 2-300 figs in them and 20+ vehicles. Those games ran about 3 hours. Try doing that with No Limits. 

Thanks,

John

I have played everything from 500 point to 4000 point skirmishes and not had any problem with the action point system.  Actually it's one of our favorite parts of the system.  It's hard to get used to at first but we picked it up in no time.  I'm not suggesting it's a perfect system but it has suited our purposes well and it's totally free.  I've looked at Fubar but I would rather have a point system game. 

[tnjrp]

I would guess that they simply don't have much if any, player base?

I wouldn't know about player bases of much anything. But Defiance is not really a game where anything much happens that generates constant buzz as it doesn't have a miniature line with new stuff coming out regularly so that would explain some of the silence. I do know there used to be some Aussies who gamed Defiance but maybe they've moved on to newer and shinier systems, for the most part anyway. I also know that MJ12 hasn't done anything at all to promote the game which I suppose is indicative of very low income from the franchise; it obviously also makes for a vicious circle but that's their choice.

So, that makes me curious as to what draws you to the rules?

Good rules, excellent force generation tools. Being in much the same situation as the OP, tho not approaching the problem from RPG angle, those are the things I appreciate. I've certainly never been much concerned with player base -- if I was, I'd be playing only about two miniature games over the last decade instead of about two dozen.

[johnl5555]

  Thanks for the reply. I'm not sure how much MJ12 does to promote any of their rules. Starmada has a loyal following. ARES was probably the best Fantasy skirmish game I have ever played. Zero promotion or support. Grand Fleets was another really solid set. 2nd edition was released with almost zero playtesting. I could go on and on. Dan is a talented and bright guy. He just doesn't seem to focus much on promoting or supporting those rule sets. It's one of the reasons why I have drifted away from buying new rule sets from him.  

[melquisedeq]

@Marauder: So what's your take on it, mate?

I luckily saved that roll but now curiosity is murdering me. Is it really that dynamic? Can you use it for straight-up fantasy?
Better yet, can it keep things balanced if you are using, say, a horde of club-wielding dog-skin savages and their psionic-powered shaman versus a couple of assault-cannon space marines and a bonafide jedi complete with lightsaber shenanigans? This is the type of questions that keep me awake at night and eat me from the inside.

[Marauder]

@Marauder: So what's your take on it, mate?

I luckily saved that roll but now curiosity is murdering me. Is it really that dynamic? Can you use it for straight-up fantasy?
Better yet, can it keep things balanced if you are using, say, a horde of club-wielding dog-skin savages and their psionic-powered shaman versus a couple of assault-cannon space marines and a bonafide jedi complete with lightsaber shenanigans? This is the type of questions that keep me awake at night and eat me from the inside.

Sorry, I really haven't had time to dig into it into any real detail (work is digging into my nerd time right now).  Would be quite some time before I could comment on play balance, but it does look like you could design all of those things and assign a point value to them.  There are rules for combining models into squads (its actually a trait assigned to a model), and there appears to be stuff that is vehicle sized (saw mention of transports too). 

-Tim