(KICKSTARTER) Defiance Games' UAMC Hardsuit SUPERVISED NEWS THREAD

[Halforc]

New response from Defiance on their Facebook page can't link it from my phone, still no real response to whether they'll pay back torn.

[Predatorpt]

New response from Defiance on their Facebook page can't link it from my phone, still no real response to whether they'll pay back torn.

Here you go:

Let us preface all this by saying that Defiance Games has had it's share of ups and downs and we've made a lot of mistakes along the way. It has definitely not been a pretty journey in the least and we are well aware of our reputation.

Over the last few months we have been regrouping and rebuilding to fix our past and bring new products to the market - helped along by a small, but successful Kickstarter in October.

That all said, we can't stand by and have our reputation further destroyed by statements that only tell a part of the story.

Alyssa Faden (or Natalya Faden) of Torn World has made a statement that basically says we are to blame for her Kickstarter failing. This is absolutely untrue. We don't believe she could afford to finish her Kickstarter with us or anyone.

The Torn Armor Kickstarter - see here: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/alyssafaden/torn-armor/

Torn raised $67K in April 2013 primarily by including a large number of miniatures as stretch goals and a free shipping offer - similar to what the large companies like Mantic Games do – when they have $1M+ Kickstarters. The core game had 12 unique miniatures (39 total figures per set). They hired another company to sculpt these figures for them and provide manufacturable STL files.

This didn't happen. It was clear early on that the sculpts that were being produced were not manufacturable at all. A combination of undercuts, ultra-thin part areas, and other problems would mean anyone would be hard pressed to actually produce them. Alyssa then described these sculpts as "sketches" that could be used by other sculptors to create manufacturable models. Torn also hired a number of physical (i.e. non-digital putty/greenstuff) sculptors to make versions of these as well.

The sculpts from Alyssa's digital sculptors cost close to $20K from what she has told us. This doesn't include the additional sculptures ($300-400 or more each) done in putty.

At the same time, as Alyssa realized that nothing she had paid for from the digital sculptors was usable, she was receiving quotes from China factories to produce the miniatures. These were coming back 30% or so over what she had “estimated”. One quote we saw put the molding alone at $45K. (i.e. it didn't include the manufacturing of any miniatures – just the molds to do so – leaving $20K for sculpting, printing, shipping, etc). The project was absolutely doomed at this stage.

At this point she called us and wanted to know if we could help do this project for her. We pushed back as we already had a lot going on here and didn't want to complicate things. She kept coming back to us asking us to please quote on the project. Finally - and how we now regret this - we did.

Her plan was that she was going to have a new digital sculptor take the digital files and “fix” them to allow them to be molded. This sounded doable and we put in place a project to mold and produce 500 core box sets. Keep in mind there are 12 unique figures in this box set and 39 figures per box. It is not a huge project but something that should take a few weeks to produce after receiving usable files. (Our project also did not include any of the 20+ other sculptures – some of them quite large multi-part expensive pieces including a massive Mu warmachine thing in many separate parts – that were needed to satisfy the Kickstarter – go visit her Kickstarter page to see all the add-on sculpts that were part of this – our part was just the core box set. She planned on having us quote on the additional work for these figures after the first project. At the time we did not know there was probably zero budget for this available.)

We drew up a contract together and this was our responsibility list:

1. Create molds for plastic production from TW-supplied master sculptures
2. Produce plastic figures from DFG-created molds.

Torn were responsible for giving us workable 3D files – which she failed to mention in her post - which we would of course work with the sculptor to make sure we could use. And that is where it fell apart.

As this was happening, the conventional sculptors had finished their work. We were ready to start molding those and producing parts. We sent pictures of the ones we received to Alyssa who posted them up on her Kickstarter pages. Based on the feedback she received she decided that the physical sculpts weren't good enough. She instructed us not to produce them and wait for the digital files to be redone.

She brought in a sculptor who began to work on the files. Unfortunately, at the time we didn't know that the files were such a mess that he was basically just re-sculpting everything from scratch. Reportedly, he was being paid $100-200 each - a really low price for the amount of work he was doing. Unfortunately, as he began to deliver the files to us we saw that changes needed to be made. The technical fixes themselves were fine - but the way they were being laid out presented issues with undercuts and in some cases used way too many parts per figure.

For example - the Mu Slinger - a 20mm tall mouse person - was delivered in five separate parts: head, two arms, body, and tail. Alyssa's instructions were to have as little gluing for the end customer as possible. We went back with a list of changes and suggestions on how to repose the sculpts to get close to a single piece figure.

The sculptor refused to communicate with us. We were forced to play the telephone game through Alyssa. But even then that did not result in changes. Alyssa was pulling her hair out - we were pulling our hair out as well. We just wanted to get some manufacturable files, print them, make the molds and produce what we were hired to make.

We recommended Alyssa hire another sculptor to try to fix the files - someone we trusted and whose work we respected. That was in December – only a short time ago. He started to look at the files and manipulate them. He quickly realized – as the original “fix” sculptor had - that one of the problems was the original files themselves. He asked if we could receive the native ZBrush files to work from. Those would be layered ZTL files. If he had those, he could make changes quickly.

To be safe, we asked Alyssa to ask the original digital sculptors for a sample of the original files to make sure they worked. Unfortunately, that did not happen. Instead, Alyssa apparently gave those digital sculptors $1000 to send her all the files without looking at them first. (We found out at this point that she and the original sculpting company had had a falling out and weren't on speaking terms – we don't know the whole story.)

The new sculptor received the files and discovered that they were a mess. In his words: "the issue isn't the poses as much as how they decided to layout the layers gaps and spaces that are hard or impossible to patch up because they bound them together. You can cut a piece off there is nothing under it have to fill the blank and then smooth it and it looks like crap."

He spent a lot of time and got us the one hoplite pose finalized which Alyssa posted January 8th. We thought we were now going to be okay but the more the sculptor dug into them the worse the files were.

Alyssa told us that she could not afford to pay for additional sculpting. We HAD to make what we had work. Unfortunately, that was impossible given the files we had to work with. Unless someone were to completely re-sculpt these figures from scratch there was no way we could produce them.

Defiance Games is now a scapegoat for Torn's decision to shut down this project - a convenient and easy target because of our own well-documented problems. We don't deny them – we definitely have had them – but we feel they are being used now to cover up Torn's inability to fulfill their Kickstarter.

We signed on to make their figures but we were never given the files that would allow that to happen. We are still prepared to finish the project and we've budgeted the materials and man-hours to do it. We just need usable files and we would be thrilled to do the work and make this project a reality.

Instead we are being blamed for the project's failure and we've been asked to refund the payment. And in the big scheme of things it is fine that they are bailing on their project – that is their right - and want us to pay back money for a part of it that was never completed. But as a small company, we're just not in a position to do that immediately in a lump sum. Along with offering to complete the project if we're given files that can be turned into miniatures, we've also offered to work out a payment plan. We'd love to see Alyssa's project succeed, but we won't lay down and let Defiance be dragged through the mud for something that is - for once - not our fault.

We did not complete the project – because we did not receive files that could be turned into produceable miniatures. If we had these – this project would be done now. We now highly doubt it would have shipped given the financials...this was a severely underfunded Kickstarter and anyone can look at the sheer amount of figures, printing, and shipping and see that.

We know we don't have a great track record and we've been working to fix it. We know we did not complete the project. But we also want people to understand the other side of this story and why that is. This is a terrible situation for everyone involved and the result may be that both our companies go down because of it.

[Talarius]

You can also see it here:
http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2014/01/24/83669/

I have no stake in either of these companies' Kickstarters or own any of their miniatures.  I've read about Defiance in this thread prior to the current blowout.  Their explanation does sound pretty plausible, although it doesn't excuse them using Torn money for anything other than paying costs to produce her figures.  They never should have touched that money and now they've made a bad situation worse.  Not unsalvageable, but worse.

[Dentatus]

*sigh* My eyes glazed after first paragraph. In my experience, the longer the answer, the deeper the bullsh*t.

The short and simple solution: give the woman her money back.

[FramFramson]

The consensus I have seen from people with experience producing meshes for 3d miniatures prints is that you should be able to tell if a mesh is no good in fifteen minutes tops, and that in 90% of the cases, many problems (non-airtight meshes, too thin, bad undercuts, too many parts for a small-scale figure, etc.) can be fixed with an hour or two's work in cheap and widely available programs (if the person knows what they're doing, of course).

Basically, the supposed problems DG are claiming are ones that should have been spotted quickly and which might have even been very easily fixable. At worst, they should have returned the files and Torn Games' money, minus a fee for their time spent reviewing the files, which should NOT have come to much.

[Dr Mathias]

Defiance shouldn't have considered doing anything at all for anyone else in the first place. Doing their own figures is out of their league. Of course, being shady asshats, they saw the $$$ and took it.

[Timbor]

Interesting reply.  I think that even if what they said is true, had they posted something yesterday like, "we are aware of the accusations of Torn Armour and will have a reply shortly," and then posted this today, public outcry would not be too bad.

The use of the funds could be seen as forgivable if they started paying back installments.

But... posting a passive aggressive, incomplete reply on a public forum like facebook?   

[Cubs]

They took the money for a job they're saying was never workable?

Why take the money?

What did they do with it?

No excuse whatsoever I'm afraid. Based on the evidence it seems the only explanation anyone can come to is that they're either incompetent, or they're thieves or a bit of both.

The internal problems with Torn Armor and rumours as to the relationships are just idle tittle-tattle and irrelevant deflection. The facts remain, they took money in advance for a contract they now say was impossible to complete. Now they refuse to return it.

[Cubs]

Don't get me wrong, if what DG have said is true (quite a stretch I admit) then TA sound pretty naive to have gone galloping into this KS with little or no idea of what they were doing, and as such must take their licks right-manfully.

But I still can't get over that DG are saying the sculpts were never viable ... and yet still took the money, spent it and now refuse to give it back or say what they did with it.

That company needs an enema.

[Timbor]

You know, I have thought of two rather positive side effects of this drama:

1 - This cannot currently affect DG's sales numbers, since they are currently zero due to their store being closed.

2 - When (If?) their own KS fails to deliver, they can effectively make Torn Armour a counter-scapegoat for their own failure (though I am sure Tony would rather blame the Chinese again)

[carlos13th]

True or not of course ta are naive they hired defiance in the first place.

It really doesn't matter if every thing defiance said was true (it's probably not) fact is they took money for work they themselves said they couldn't do and are refusing to return it in a prompt manner. If the work was never done the money should never have been spent. You will notice he has never addressed where the money went.

[6milPhil]

An Open Video to Defiance Games about Torn Armor from GMS Magazine.

[Quendil]

With what seems like increasing number of Kickstarter problems it has really put me off backing any more in the future

[Westfalia Chris]

Alright, folks, this has gone on for long enough. I have pruned the thread of various messages which did not add anything constructive to the discussion.

I have received various requests to lock this thread. I am not sure it would be good to have it fade into obscurity due to the fact that the affair is still ongoing.

Instead of closing it, I have decided to put it on special supervision status, so to speak. I will leave it open, but, in the interest of collecting information and keeping it available, you may ONLY and EXCLUSIVELY post replies containing actual new developments. I will monitor and review EVERY post made to this thread and will DELETE any post not containing new and useful information without prior notice.

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS THREAD UNLESS YOU HAVE NEW AND RELEVANT INFORMATION TO SHARE. DO NOT OPEN OTHER THREADS TO DISCUSS THE DEFIANCE GAME KICKSTARTER AFFAIR.

[6milPhil]

Further lines are being drawn with more "industry folk" deciding to sign an open letter to John Morse which can be seen on FB: https://www.facebook.com/notes/the-rpg-brain-trust/a-letter-to-john-morse-concerning-torn-armor/10152169634107558