Does anyone here play Kings of War (Mantic games)

[maxxon]

Aren't Mantic undead on 20mm bases as standard?

In Warhammer (and other figure-based rules), there is a definite advantage for using narrower frontage -- you get more models to attack, e.g. 4 orcs on 25mm bases will face 5 humans on 20mm bases, that's a 20% advantage in number of attacks.

So I'm gathering the unit width doesn't really make a huge impact in KoW? I could easily standardize on Impetus bases (120mm width) and it wouldn't really matter? For standard units, hordes are doublewidth, aren't they?
I wish the rules had actually been clearer on this...

[Vermis]

Kings of War is unit-based, but Mantic models are (or were) very much oriented towards playing figure-based Warhammer. Mantic orcs still come with individual 25mm bases, but in KoW they're still organised into 20-figure-strong regiments etc., making an orc reg 20% wider and deeper than than one of humans, elves, dwarfs, skellies etc. I assume the game was playtested and at least a little balanced with this in mind.

I don't know how much practical difference it might make to stick orcs on a unit base identical to other races. Maybe only a minor niggle, but enough to put KoW down a place or two on my favourites chart.

[doctor_ocks]

I love KoW and don't on a single Mantic product. And that's why, even if KoW was only half as good as it is, I'd still play. I love companies and games that don't force their products down my throat. Watch those Beasts of War videos they posted last month with James Hewitt, a Manyic employee. They STRONGLY encourage people to be creative with their armies.

Hell, I play with Lego figs and they even included it in a blog post. Here's a link to my armies:
http://forum.manticblog.com/showthread.php?4739-My-Lego-KoW-units

[maxxon]

They STRONGLY encourage people to be creative with their armies.

I do like the attitude, but I would like if they were clearer about the gameplay effects beyond the old "all models are supplied with correct size bases (when bought from us)" schtick.

E.g. DBM is a big ruleset on the historicals side. Like most historicals, there is no "official" figure range for DBM. You can stick whatever you want on the bases and it doesn't affect the game in any way. However, the bases themselves have to be the correct size or the game will break down -- and the rules are very clear on this (well, as clear as anything written in Barkerese is).

E.g. so an orc unit is wider than a similar human unit. Does this actually make a difference in gameplay (beyond simple terrain fitment issues)? Like is it possible for two human units to simultaneously attack the orc unit's front because of the difference in frontage?

[carlos13th]

Its not that difficult to work out if you know the base sizes. It would have been nice if they included the measurements though. I haven't played the game enough to say how unit size effects gameplay but here are the rough measurements.

This is from a rather poor memory but I believe normal infantry are on 20mm bases and Orcs are on 25mm

So Basicly a standard troop is 10 guys 5 across and 2 back. Non orc infantry is on 20mm bases.

 Meaning the unit size of a standard troop is 100x40.

Standard Regiment 20 guys 5 across and 4 back is 100x80

Standard horde is 40 guys 10 across and 4 back 200x80

Orcs are on 25mm bases so just add 25%

Troop = 125x50
Regiment = 125x100
Horde= 150x100

You can multibase things so as long as your entire unit is the right size it doesn't really matter how many models you have ontop or what their base size is.

All of this has a little leeway as the rules state plus or minus a movement tray. So a little bigger would be fine a little smaller may not be.

[maxxon]

Orcs are on 25mm bases so just add 25%

Yes, but does it make a difference?

Going back to my orcs vs. men example, we figured that humans enjoy a 20% advantage in number of attacks due to base size. Let's be generous and assume the game balancing actually takes this into account and for the sake of argument let's assume that orc and human units are supposed to be equal -- they have slightly different advantages but those are supposed to cancel out.

Now, if I ignore the game's instructions and mount my humans on 25mm bases... I will lose the 20% advantage.

The game still plays. But my humans will constantly and consistently lose to an "equal" force of orcs, meaning the game balance is broken.

In this case, changing the base size makes a significant difference.

What I'm curious about is whether base size Kings of War plays a similar part.

[Vermis]

Well, in a straight head-to-head clash between two units of the same designated figure count, each unit rolls a set number of attacks, regardless of unit or miniature frontage. So in that case I don't think it matters. What I'm less sure about are maneuvres, movement distances, multiple units in combat, and - like I said above - whether all that's taken into the unit points cost.

I might be a little (or a lot) obsessive and paranoid about it, but like I also said: when ranked up against other possible game choices it's an extra little con of uncertainty and even railroading. Seems to emphasise the link and compatibility with Warhammer, and in terms of basing seems to drive you towards compatibility with that figure-based ruleset, rather than allow compatibility with many other unit-based mass combat games. Like Mayhem, and HOTT, and Impetus
It's perfectly fine for the many people who become bored with Warhammer and want to try something different (better) without mucking their 25mm-based orcs about too much (and more power to them); but personally, I'd like to diverge just a wee bit further than that.

Although, I've been meaning to try it out with a couple of Warmaster armies. Could be useful to see if cav on the same frontage as infantry makes a difference.

[carlos13th]

I just like the fact you can pretty much slot any historicals you want into a kingdoms of men force.

[maxxon]

I went ahead and bought the rules.

There is a strong emphasis on "being able to fit" in the rules.

In a 1-on-1 engagement it doesn't make much difference, but in a battleline-vs-battleline situation the units with larger footprint are at distinct disadvantage. Identical frontage allows you to make 2-on-1 attacks against a unit in a battle line (apparently this game does not have a concept of mutually supporting units, so their brave fellows will do much twiddling of thumbs while their line is being penetrated...) while smaller frontage (e.g. humans vs. orcs) allows you to gang up 3-on-1, which probably guarantees breakthroughs and consequent rolling of the line.

I did not analyse whether e.g. orc units get a point break vs. similar other units with a smaller footprint. That might be an interesting excercise.

[grant]

I love KoW and don't on a single Mantic product. And that's why, even if KoW was only half as good as it is, I'd still play. I love companies and games that don't force their products down my throat. Watch those Beasts of War videos they posted last month with James Hewitt, a Manyic employee. They STRONGLY encourage people to be creative with their armies.

Hell, I play with Lego figs and they even included it in a blog post. Here's a link to my armies:
http://forum.manticblog.com/showthread.php?4739-My-Lego-KoW-units

Your Lego armies are simply awesome! Dobbie in the sylvan kin is almost as good as mushroom head man