New 28mm Mesoamerican Aztecs from Gringo40s

[Captain Blood]

Gorgeous Gedward.
Although I actually prefer my version of the warrior with the pig-head
(I'd never normally dare to say this with one of Andrew's paint jobs, because he is the creme de la creme, but on this occasion, with that particular figure, I think I might just have edged it...  )

[LeadAsbestos]

No way are those Andrew Taylor's paintjobs. Nice stuff, but not his style.
(Capt, I liked yours too! )

Edit: Angel someone? Great stuff!

[gringo]

young Richard

as a doff of my cap i attach your masterpiece...
for the viewing pleasure of all mesoamerican buffs!
actually those  four fearsome Aztecs are from Angel
a the shot is taken from a distance they do look abit Andrewish1
but leadasbestos is right  on both counts......more mesoamericans
with Andrew at the moment to paint

cheers men
best regards
Ged
www.gringo40s.com
ps Richard theres still 3.5 weeks to Salute enough to slap painton a meso?!

[Captain Blood]

Aha. All becomes clear. Mind you, Angel is certainly no slouch - a very fine painter

Sorry Ged - still painting teams for the Lead Painters League. No more Aztecs for a while... 

[gringo]

Richard

no problem old chap..good luck with those teams!
theres always post Salute!

regards
Ged

www.gringo40s.com
www.gringo40s.blogspot.com

[krimso]

These are fantastic!!

Interestingly I just started painting some Eureka conquistadores about 2 weeks ago.  They had been in my basement for about a decade.  I was thinking that I need to get some more Aztecs.  Lo and behold!!

Can't wait for these to be released.

Any idea as to how well they would fit scale-wise with the Eureka's I already have?

[Atheling]

They are all superb sculpts ( ) and I find myself drifting towards the idea of mass battles in South america against the Spanish invaders!!

Painting, from all quaters, is of course spendiferous 

In one way at least, it's a good job I can't make it down to Salute!! She would kill me! 

Darrell.

[gringo]

Krimso

i believe the figures match size wise but i will check this properly
when i can
im sure there will be enough variants to tempt you"thanks for youir
interest

Darrell...............cheers matey you know it makes sense huge battles
loads of lovely coloured figures. im sure the Mrs wouldnt mind you
getting a few.............mines in tow and i hyponotise her on a daily
basis with the growing mound of release ..she has no idea!!  
best regards Ged www.gringo40s.com

[Lowtardog]

They are all superb sculpts ( ) and I find myself drifting towards the idea of mass battles in South america against the Spanish invaders!!

Painting, from all quaters, is of course spendiferous 

In one way at least, it's a good job I can't make it down to Salute!! She would kill me! 

Darrell.

Perhaps start with flower wars with inter tirbal warfare then expand into conquest, that way you build up enough Aztecs etc to take on your Conquistadors

[Steel fist]

Your doing a fantastic job with these, I really like the fact your doing lesser known warrior types.
Keep it up

[gringo]

Lowtardog still getting to grips with the flower war scenarios theres
seems to be many coonflicting reasons for these forays into
stylised combat........was it just for the prisoners or a display
of Aztec might....interesting....

Steel fist.may thanks indeed for your thimbs up i didnt realise the
complexity of the Aztec empire.......in the midst of getting banners
sorted and canoes...and just had Montezuma green sent to Griffin
..he looks stunning ....paid top dollar for him as he has to stand out

regards
Ged
www.gringo40s.com
wwww.gringo40s.blogspot.com

[Lowtardog]

Lowtardog still getting to grips with the flower war scenarios theres
seems to be many coonflicting reasons for these forays into
stylised combat........was it just for the prisoners or a display
of Aztec might....interesting....

There are thought to be a number of reasons;
It was a ritual form of war where two enemy cities would plan battles through mutual arrangement in order to satisfy the religious needs for war captives to use in sacrificial rituals

It is also thought to be a means of training developing warriors within their military structure it may have been one way to secure promotion. This idea doesnt seem to hold up much these days

Another reason was it was used as a means of raiding against enemy states to break them down, interrupt harvest, trade etc, equating to a shock and awe, terror campaign especially when if captured you would be subject to ritual sacrifice.

By the time of the conquest, The Aztecs were not as dominant, with the Tlaxcalan and Tarascans breathing down their necks and dissent across subject/trubute nations readily evident with the defection of tribes to the conquistatodrs and nations such as the Huaxtec and Otomi fighting as mercenaries or the likely winner.

I try to equate it with the demise of the Spartan nation and the Spartiate alliance etc

[gringo]

interesting take on the events Karl ...i guess the more i read the
picture will become clearer.I summise even with or without the
Conquistadors the Aztec Empire was starting to crumble...!

with the vast array of enemies and "partially subjected" tribes
all around them im suprised they lasted so long. man to man
were they better warriors?...........or just the the Eagle/Jaguar/Hustec
(spelling) were the driving force........../.
 

[Lowtardog]

interesting take on the events Karl ...i guess the more i read the
picture will become clearer.I summise even with or without the
Conquistadors the Aztec Empire was starting to crumble...!

with the vast array of enemies and "partially subjected" tribes
all around them im suprised they lasted so long. man to man
were they better warriors?...........or just the the Eagle/Jaguar/Hustec
(spelling) were the driving force........../.
 

In the info I sent on those draft rules, my iniital thoughts are that they were a strong federation, certainly their structure of the military made for a formidable army, the shock and awe element such as the flower war or threat of this is very much apparent as a deterrant for tribute smaller nations, city states. If you look at the Aztec Alliance it was most liklely a combination of the above and also the size of the force together with their cohesion
THE TRIPLE ALLIANCE ARMY

A Triple Alliance Army consists of any number of Xiquipillis, a Xiquipilli in turn formed from three or four Calpulli.  To call out an army for the Triple Alliance the first contingents were drawn from Tenochtitlan, Texcoco and Tlacopan, with Tenochtitlan being the military leader of the other two and provider of the commanding general.   

The Army structure is conjecture and has been devised to present a “feel” for the differing traits of Mesoamerican warfare.  A Triple Alliance army is biased towards Line troops, representing a main field army and its Elite Military Orders.  Missile troops are drawn exclusively from the Allied Tribute towns.  The Xiquipilli structure represents a field army, . This can be substituted for any Elite order to act as a bodyguard if required.  If fielding more than one Capulli or if depicting a campaign army, Line Capulli can be substituted for Allied Tribute Capullis as required, with the exception of the Elite Capulli.

Additionally, Line units can be substituted for either Priest or Pochteca units at either Xiquipilli, or Capulli for Priests, or Capulli for Pochteca.  Additionally if a Priest Xiquipilli is fielded then the Elite Capulli can either be priest Elite units or regular Military Orders.

The following Capullis would have been the most common to have provided warriors for any campaign
1.   Tlacochcalca, Cihuatecpan, Huitznahuac,  Tlacatecpan, Yopico, Tezcacoac, Tlamatzinco, Molloco Itlillan, Chalmeca, Tzonmolco, Coatlan, Chillilico, Izquitlan, Milnahuac , Coatl Xoxouhcan

1.   Texcoco was essentially split into two halves ruled by Ixtlilxochitl to the north and Cacamatzin to the south.  So the army may have a Capulli form each Chiefs subjects

2.   Tlacopan (Tacuba) was weaker and as such was merely an extension of Tenochtitlan so providing 1 Capulli for an army.


Allied Tribute Army

These were from a multitude of areas within the Empire and were called upon as local forces perhaps to support the Triple Alliance Field Armies or used for local duties such as garrisoning frontiers or collecting tribute etc. When fielded they will be lead by a Tlacochcalcatl or Tlacetecatl who was commonly an Aztec governor sent from Tenochtitlan. When acting in there own defence they are lead by their own Tlatoani (Chieftain). In general due to their dependency of missile troops Allied Tribute Capulli are found in support roles within Triple Alliance Xiquipilli. An Allied Tribute Xiquipilli can field an army in its own right.

This variation on the Capulli is similarly, most civilizations had suit wearers but not in such great proportions as the Triple Alliance.

This army structure represents a regional army, being weaker in Line and Military orders but heavy in light Missile units, based upon the fact that many Allies cultures were more in favour of the bow /sling than the Aztecs.  As opposed to the Main Field armies these Capulli represent the forces available to the tribute states and are indicative of the smaller armies fielded against the Spanish whilst subduing the lowlands.  As indicated within the Triple Alliance structure these Capullis are interchangeable with the Triple Alliance Capullis when representing a more regional or campaign army. When operating in a particular theatre of war, the local tribute towns would be required to provide troops or possibly supplies. They would be looked upon as an allied general and contingent, Regular Military Tributary Contingents were

The Four Lords of Colhuacan
Xochimilco (who held a special and senior role as a military ally)
Cuitlahuac
Mizquic
Combined peoples of the Tierra Caliente
Chalco
Cuauhtlalpan

[Lowtardog]

I think to try and make sense of it from western eyes is very difficult as it is a supremely different culture.

I try and look at aztec armies as Dark age saxons

Huscarls - these would be more than likely your Jaguar/Otomi/Eagle warrior sects (Quachic sit outside of this and would be akin to Berserks or more likely in greek terms a sacred band or the Spartan 300)
Thegns - these are lower rank (capture rank denoted by suit types very much simplified say 4 captures and above) such as those wearing other types of war suit
Select Fyrd these would if looking at other sets of rules relate to noble and none noble warriors of lower rank/experience such as 1/2/3 capture warriors
Great Fyrd - these would be novices and genral none noble warriors - a levy if you will

The units Xiquipilli, or Capulli would be levied from the cities or districts e.g. Barrios or from tribute towns (think local colonial troops such as in the British empire armies)
I dont think they fought as either all elite warriors and then a unit of normal/ levy warriors it would be effectively a shieldwall with the higher expereinced warriors at the front and the younger less experienced at the rear, priests and leaders would be at the rear and may have performed a form of Commissar role also a focal point for holding captured enemy etc.

That is not to say that there werent eleite bodyguards or troops drawn from the eleite functions, Quachic are notable in that their role was a forlorn advance guard, ambush shock troops or a rear guard

Antoher thing to note is that the Aztecs seem from some sources to have used a manipular means of fighting where by units would be interchanged to allow recovery and refresh the ranks, this may have given them the edge in some conflicts.

When looking at other nations the volume and use of troops, the supply lines etc and the sheer number of men mauy have been factors, however they would have adopted and evolved their own tactics and in siome instacnes imitated the Aztec tactics and strategy. Fire power for Talaxcalans would have been one point.