British in the ACW? Perry's new range. More on Page 4

[carlos marighela]

You could also use these for the 1859 'Pig War', the armed stand off that very nearly became open conflict betwixt Britain and the US. Do the Perry twins make US Army in frock coats and Hardee Hats? I seem to recall Crusader does.

[huevans]

Carlos, why wouldn't the US wear the forage cap and forage blouse in 1859?

[LawnRanger]

Actions have consequences.

In 1917 there recruits for what we call today WW1 noted in the newspapers who had enlisted and were looking forward to fighting the English.  Had there been a war in the 1860s there might have been some problems getting enthusiastic recruits to fight versus Germany.

I don't Think , there would of been a u.s.a  as such If Great Britain went to war  ,with them yanks we would of  gave you yanks a good thrashing my dear boy !  Just like we did in 1812!  

and they would not, of had them dam   French ,Dutch and Spanish   to help them out  like they had in the AWI .. but most americans forget that they fought for them in that war ..  

But sounds a good "what If " oh and we would  have good old queen vick  on the throne then as well .Jobs a good un!  

we could even see H.M.S Warrior and the Black Prince  in Action on the high seas now that would be cool Navel game !
true Iron clads v wooden ship stuff !  
Happy gaming all LR

[carlos marighela]

Carlos, why wouldn't the US wear the forage cap and forage blouse in 1859?

To be honest, I don't know. The ACW is not a topic I'm especially well versed in but I am aware that the official pre war uniform was the frocknand the Hardee hat, so I am postulating on that basis.

[Phyllion]

Quite a curveball. I do t have a use for them but I want some.

[Cadet13]

To be honest, I don't know. The ACW is not a topic I'm especially well versed in but I am aware that the official pre war uniform was the frocknand the Hardee hat, so I am postulating on that basis.

Based on some of the books I have, the Hrdee hat was adopted in 1858, but solely as the official dress hat. Given the amount of time that it took units operating in the American west to be issued new uniforms as well as the propensity of units to use articles of clothing until they were unusable I'd say that there would more than likely be a number of the tall 1851 'chassuer' caps as well as the older 1839 forage caps (which were first worn before the Mexican-American War 1846-48 and continued to be worn into the late 1850s by some U.S. infantry units in the west) present on the heads of the Americans. Wide-brimmed "cowboy" or slouch hats were also favored by western units. Based on photo evidence I've seen the forage cap wasn't phased in until sometime in 1860-61. The frock coat was introduced in 1854 and continued to be the "official" uniform through the mid 1860s.

So to game the 1859 Pig War I'd use a few Hardee hatted officers and I'd have the soldiers wearing a mix of slouch hats, 1851 shakos and a rare few 1839 forage caps, all of them wearing frock coats. I'd also probably get a few wearing overcoats, as it gets cold and wet in Washington state. But that's just me.

-Chuck

[commissarmoody]

Its mostly dry and forested once you get east of the cascades. Not forgetting the flat grasslands tell you hit eastern Washington Spokane area. 

[huevans]

Based on some of the books I have, the Hrdee hat was adopted in 1858, but solely as the official dress hat. Given the amount of time that it took units operating in the American west to be issued new uniforms as well as the propensity of units to use articles of clothing until they were unusable I'd say that there would more than likely be a number of the tall 1851 'chassuer' caps as well as the older 1839 forage caps (which were first worn before the Mexican-American War 1846-48 and continued to be worn into the late 1850s by some U.S. infantry units in the west) present on the heads of the Americans. Wide-brimmed "cowboy" or slouch hats were also favored by western units. Based on photo evidence I've seen the forage cap wasn't phased in until sometime in 1860-61. The frock coat was introduced in 1854 and continued to be the "official" uniform through the mid 1860s.

So to game the 1859 Pig War I'd use a few Hardee hatted officers and I'd have the soldiers wearing a mix of slouch hats, 1851 shakos and a rare few 1839 forage caps, all of them wearing frock coats. I'd also probably get a few wearing overcoats, as it gets cold and wet in Washington state. But that's just me.

-Chuck

The issue is when the forage blouse started to be issued, I guess. And whether the waist length light blue jacket - which was worn in the Mexican war would still be acceptable campaign wear in the 1850's.

[commissarmoody]

I don't Think , there would of been a u.s.a  as such If Great Britain went to war  ,with them yanks we would of  gave you yanks a good thrashing my dear boy !  Just like we did in 1812!  

You are more then welcome to come. We will send you packing just like "Old Hickory" did, in New Orleans. 
On a side note this might actually get me interested in playing some ACW games.

[Lowtardog]

Very nice they would fit well for the later Maori wars too

[carlos marighela]

Based on some of the books I have, the Hrdee hat was adopted in 1858, but solely as the official dress hat. Given the amount of time that it took units operating in the American west to be issued new uniforms as well as the propensity of units to use articles of clothing until they were unusable I'd say that there would more than likely be a number of the tall 1851 'chassuer' caps as well as the older 1839 forage caps (which were first worn before the Mexican-American War 1846-48 and continued to be worn into the late 1850s by some U.S. infantry units in the west) present on the heads of the Americans. Wide-brimmed "cowboy" or slouch hats were also favored by western units. Based on photo evidence I've seen the forage cap wasn't phased in until sometime in 1860-61. The frock coat was introduced in 1854 and continued to be the "official" uniform through the mid 1860s.


So to game the 1859 Pig War I'd use a few Hardee hatted officers and I'd have the soldiers wearing a mix of slouch hats, 1851 shakos and a rare few 1839 forage caps, all of them wearing frock coats. I'd also probably get a few wearing overcoats, as it gets cold and wet in Washington state. But that's just me.

-Chuck

Thanks for the explanation. So the Crusader minis with some head swaps would be the ticket then? Is the 'Chasseur cap the shako type affair that the Perry Early Militia are wearing?

[carlos marighela]

Five minute's worth of Google answered my question for me:

http://www.sil.si.edu/smithsoniancontributions/HistoryTechnology/pdf_lo/SSHT-0030.pdf

[Cadet13]

Five minute's worth of Google answered my question for me:

http://www.sil.si.edu/smithsoniancontributions/HistoryTechnology/pdf_lo/SSHT-0030.pdf

Great find, carlos!

[Conquistador]

I don't Think , there would of been a u.s.a  as such If Great Britain went to war  ,with them yanks we would of  gave you yanks a good thrashing my dear boy !  Just like we did in 1812!  

<snip>

Seems there was a USA after that war...  

And I believe it was technically a draw.

Edit:  I have no idea where the bold came from as I did not intend to bold anything.


Certainly The UK didn't gain any territory although they tried:

From wikipedia (insert all the usual caveats here):

As the peace talks opened, the British demanded the creation of an Indian barrier state in the American Northwest Territory (the area from Ohio to Wisconsin), and they demanded that Americans not have any naval forces on the Great Lakes. The U.S. rejected the demands and there was an impasse.[144]
American public opinion was outraged when Madison published the demands; even the Federalists were now willing to fight on. The British had planned three invasions. One force burned Washington but failed to capture Baltimore, and sailed away when its commander was killed. In northern New York State, 10,000 British veterans were marching south until a decisive defeat at the Battle of Plattsburgh forced them back to Canada. Nothing was known of the fate of the third large invasion force aimed at capturing New Orleans and southwest. The Prime Minister wanted the Duke of Wellington to command in Canada and finally win the war; Wellington said that he would go to America but he believed he was needed in Europe.[145] He also stated:

I think you have no right, from the state of war, to demand any concession of territory from America ... You have not been able to carry it into the enemy's territory, notwithstanding your military success and now undoubted military superiority, and have not even cleared your own territory on the point of attack. You cannot on any principle of equality in negotiation claim a cessation of territory except in exchange for other advantages which you have in your power ... Then if this reasoning be true, why stipulate for the uti possidetis? You can get no territory: indeed, the state of your military operations, however creditable, does not entitle you to demand any.[146]

The Prime Minister, Lord Liverpool, aware of growing opposition to wartime taxation and the demands of Liverpool and Bristol merchants to reopen trade with America, realized Britain had little to gain and much to lose from prolonged warfare.[147] Britain dropped its demand for an independent Indian state, which was in any case hopeless after the defeat of the British and the death of Tecumseh at the Battle of the Thames; this concession allowed negotiations to resume at the end of October. The details were then easy to resolve since the basic plan was to exchange all captured territory and leave the boundary as it was before the war.[148]
On December 24, 1814 the diplomats had finished and signed the Treaty of Ghent. The treaty was ratified by the British three days later on December 27[149] and arrived in Washington on February 17 where it was quickly ratified and went into effect, thus finally ending the war. The terms called for all occupied territory to be returned, the prewar boundary between Canada and the United States to be restored, and the Americans were to gain fishing rights in the Gulf of Saint Lawrence.

So, dream on, Sir.  The Genie was out of the bottle...

Gracias,

Glenn

[Conquistador]

<snip>

and they would not, of had them dam   French ,Dutch and Spanish   to help them out  like they had in the AWI .. but most americans forget that they fought for them in that war ..  

<snip>

This historian reminds his fellow gamers here in the USA that: (again from Wikipedia, sigh,)

Spain and the Dutch Republic—French allies—also went to war with Britain over the next four years, threatening an invasion of Great Britain and severely testing British military strength with campaigns in Europe, Asia, and the Caribbean. Spain's involvement resulted in the expulsion of British armies from West Florida, securing the American southern flank. The British naval victory at the Battle of the Saintes thwarted a French and Spanish plan to drive Britain out of the Caribbean and preparations for a second attempt were halted by the declaration of peace. A long Franco-Spanish siege of the British stronghold at Gibraltar also resulted in defeat.

Final Point:  Basically, no Bernardo de Gálvez, the war in the South Colonies becomes much more problematic...

(Yes, freaking wikipedia, yet again,)

Under Royal Order from Charles III of Spain, Gálvez continued the smuggling operations to supply the North American rebels early in 1777. The British blockaded the eastern colonial ports, and the route from New Orleans up the Mississippi River was an effective alternative. Gálvez worked with Oliver Pollock, a North American patriot, shipping gunpowder, muskets, uniforms, medicine and other supplies.

Gálvez let an American force through New Orleans before Spain joined the cause. Gálvez was sent to Florida by New Spain Viceroy Martín de Mayorga, at the head of an expedition of colonial troops to aid American colonists in their rebellion against Britain. Spain's motive was the chance to recover territories lost to the British, particularly Florida, and to remove the on-going British threat.

On June 21, 1779 Spain declared war on Great Britain. On June 25, 1779 a letter from London marked secret and confidential, went to General John Campbell of Strachur at Pensacola from King George III and Lord George Germain. General John Campbell was instructed that it was the object of greatest importance to organize an attack upon New Orleans. If General John Campbell thought it was possible to reduce the Spanish fort at New Orleans, he was ordered to proceed immediately to make preparations. These preparations included: (1) secure from Vice-Admiral Sir Peter Parker as many armed vessels as could be spared from Jamaica, (2) collect all forces which could be drawn together in the province, (3) take as many faithful Indians as the Superintendent could supply, (4) draw on the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury for all expenses.

As an unfortunate twist of fate for General John Campbell, upon which his whole career was decided, this secret communication fell into the hands of Governor Galvez. After reading the communication from King George III and Germain, Gálvez, Governor of Louisiana swiftly and secretly organized Louisiana and New Orleans for war.
Gálvez carried out a masterful military campaign and defeated the British colonial forces at Manchac, Baton Rouge, and Natchez in 1779. The Battle of Baton Rouge on September 21, 1779 freed the lower Mississippi Valley of British forces and relieved the threat to the capital of Louisiana, New Orleans. In 1780, he recaptured Mobile from the British at the Battle of Fort Charlotte.

His most important military victory over the British forces occurred May 9, 1781, when he attacked and took by land and by sea Pensacola, the British (and formerly, Spanish) capital of West Florida from General John Campbell of Strachur. The loss of Mobile and Pensacola left the British with no bases in the Gulf of Mexico. In 1782, forces under his overall command captured the British naval base at New Providence in the Bahamas. Galvez was angry that the operation had gone ahead without his permission, and arranged for the commander of the expedition Juan de Cagigal to be imprisoned.

He received many honors from Spain for his military victories against the British, including promotion to lieutenant general and field marshal, governor and captain general of Louisiana and Florida (now separated from Cuba), the command of the Spanish expeditionary army in America, and the titles of viscount of Gálveztown and count of Gálvez.

The American Revolution ended while Gálvez was preparing a new campaign to take Jamaica.

The importance of Galvez's campaign from the American perspective was that he denied the British the opportunity of encircling the American rebels from the south, and kept open a vital conduit for supplies. Galvez also assisted the American revolutionaries with supplies and soldiers, a good deal of it through Oliver Pollock.

Gracias,

Glenn

Yeah, a bit proud o the Spanish participation...