new year rant...

[Arrigo]

The strategic hamlet issues is thorny. Part time militia can shift allegiance very quickly... bug it is not a subject of concern (rant) because no one does RVN local forces in 15mm.

what i want to collect not always is what is more likely to be used in a real war. I collect forces to do wargames not to predict the future. As once I wrote in a research paper if you want to predict the future you enter in a business where you need a crystal ball... it was like the Secretary of Defence telling Julian Thompson and mike Clapp that he will never had to conduct an opposed landing and thus not worry about it...  what I collect are forces that I like, and that I can use in my gaming, and I assume a lot of us do the same (and some just collect the uber army of the day... snide comment...). I have US, Russian,  and UK forces in 15mm. I like their look, I can also use them together in a game. I would like to have the PLA because I like the appearance. For european force I am keen on the Italian Army and the Polish one, they have quite good stuff. The Germans I will do not, I have them in 6mm, a smattering of Jaegers in 28mm and I am not really happy to do them for 2000+ in 15mm, maybe a small force for the 80s yes, but not the current one, do not ask me why... fancied once to do a Jaeger platoon with Fuchs but never been motivated. Korea is a top priority. I like the equipment on both sides. The Japanese are also nice. I have hopes for a decent PLA range but not for the others... this is sad. Stopped also to hope in a 15mm MGS. I will get a platoon of Strykers from Acheson (the one from Khurasan seems nice but Khurasan often show you things thagt are not ready for months or years... rant again). and to be quite honest I have full Stryker unit in 6mm so why bother in the end too much? I prefer to do something different... 

Why Irak 91 generated less interested than Afghanistan? Well certainly the portrayal of the war did not warrant it. The little casualties suffered by the coalition associated to a lot of weapons **rn in the media conspired to create an image of a loopsided action. Aving played several games on the conflict (the Sands of War, Phase Line Smash) I will say that a lot of battles were much more contested than the popular opinion thinks. The Iraqi in 1991 did maneuvers by division and were even able to redeploy the RGMC to a blocking position to try to stop the VII corps. This is the reason why I am building divisional size forces in 6mm for that campaign.

[Conquistador]

what i want to collect not always is what is more likely to be used in a real war. I collect forces to do wargames not to predict the future.<SNIP>

Personally I try to do something like this for other eras along with wanting armies that existed in history but are not likely to become "popular" ever, Arrigo, so I understand some of your frustration.  

This is a great goal but unless you come up with a way for a company to make money or at least break even on a project (KS, pay for it yourself, indiegogo, or some other mechanism,) your wants will go unrequited. I think some manufacturers aren't interested in making fill-in pieces for certain armies or even certain armies because they are not convinced they will make back the investment.  I also think this has been influenced by the number of times people have said something like, "Ooh, ooh, if only somebody made North Atlantean Ice Cream Throwers I would buy a ton of them," only to discover the people expressing interest either

1) don't make good on the expressed interest by buying substantial numbers

2) lose interest in the interval (more than a few of us are butterflies)

3) essentially say, "Well, there are not any East Lemurian ketchup gunners to fight them," so why bother

4) Oh, those are 31 mm sized and I play 29 mm sized figures

5) "Oh there are not not enough the support weapons/vehicles/variants to make a force of 1,000 individual sculpts"

I have been guilty of expressing interest in a type of historical figures many years ago and when a manufacturer came out with a partial set several years later of doing one of the above myself.  I can't blame that particular company (no longer in business for other reasons) if they had never listened to my wish list statements ever again.

Sorry to sound like a broken record but [unless a manufacturer has a strong personal interest in a line of figures] it has to be profitable for him/her to produce them.  Too often  that doesn't happen - a platoon of individual figures for "M-i-i-i-i-i-i-c-e i-n S-p-a-a-a-a-a-a-c-e" being a want of mine I quit talking about when I realized it wasn't going to happen unless I came up with the money to pay for the sculpts, molds, castings for what I wanted myself upfront and I couldn't justify that expense with children who wanted to go to college and I wanted to help them do so financially.  

See http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=50885.0 for someone who did come up with the line of figures he wanted produced.  It wasn't cheap but he got his wish.

Whether is Historical, Fantasy, SF, VSF, or "fill in the box," no manufacturer can afford to make a line of figures that doesn't make money very many times.

Anyway, this is enough for me.  I will try not to come back and deal with your understandable (and possibly justifiable) rant because I fear your rant will not be satisfied until someone bankrolls the wish list or 3D production miniatures production "at home or in the shop" becomes financially viable.

Gracias,

Glenn

[Arrigo]

Glenn,

I think you are even less optimist than me.... and if you look around you will see plenty of niche ranges, some just embryonic, other quite fleshed out.

Your points 1 to 5 are valid... look at PMT for countless examples. But in some cases the manufacturers themselves produces bits that you cannot do anything with. It is a two way problem, blaming all on our side is not really fair.

As far my whishes, well, predicting what the next war will be is not a thing that will ensure us ranges, it is not even clear if the next war will be wargaming-fashionable. Also I collect things that are available...

On the other hand having decent ranges of major contemporary players is not such a far cry. Actually it is reasonable to expect to have some basic kit. 15mm is a popular scale. To be quite honest i think a bit more forethought displayed on both sides of the equation will only benefit the hobby. I am quite sure that ZTZ-99 and ZDB-3 will sell as Type 92 APC. Maybe the Korean stuff will sell too. Just giving you a barebon selection of infantry and vehicles will be much better than throwing at you a single bone, expecting the customer to drool and then build a range. Well the mini AIW range from BF is something that makes sense (I will buy the IDF infantry and the IShermans and possible the Egyptian Infantry).  The YK range from Khurasan was also balanced, but then, after having show completed stuff in various sites the actual releases seems in the middle of nowhere. We had been told that the M60 and Centurion were ready as the Egyptian infantry then nothing... like the Stryker and the HMMWV they are supposed to be ready by months...

I think that you misunderstood my rant a bit... I was ranting about ranges (ok overstatement, more or less independent bits) started and then abandoned rather than making my own...

[Arrigo]

oh well,

having some new tanks would not be so impossible now... if someone has experience in doing good 3d sculpts and can work well with shapeways you can obtain some reasonably priced and good quality vehicles...

[AngusPodgorny1969]

what I collect are forces that I like, and that I can use in my gaming, and I assume a lot of us do the same (and some just collect the uber army of the day... snide comment...).

I take the same approach with my troops and my sons do too in a way.

I collect primarily based on how troops look.  For example, in 6mm I love GHQ's Chinese wheeled APCs. Actually, I'm a huge fan of any 6-8 wheeled APC, especially those with autocannons such as the LAV-25. 

My kids are a mixed bag. They will try to power-game in a way but they do so based on their personal tactical preferences. My older son loves close assault and will collect forces designed around CQB and rapid movement. My other son enjoys stand-off "shooty" armies but also anything involving animals. In fantasy gaming he'll collect armies designed around animals (eg HOTT beast-themed armies) and in our home grown near-future/post-apocalyptic games he loves using mutant animal troops.  His current favorite includes several stands of giant mutant weasels! 

We're also fans of near-future, Halo-style full body armor.

[Conquistador]

Glenn,

I think you are even less optimist than me.... and if you look around you will see plenty of niche ranges, some just embryonic, other quite fleshed out.

Your points 1 to 5 are valid... look at PMT for countless examples. But in some cases the manufacturers themselves produces bits that you cannot do anything with. It is a two way problem, blaming all on our side is not really fair.

<SNIP>

I think that you misunderstood my rant a bit... I was ranting about ranges (ok overstatement, more or less independent bits) started and then abandoned rather than making my own...

Thanks and yes, in retrospect, I may have overstated the impact of points 1 to 5.  But then I see the high variability of Eureka's 100/300 club and I wonder if the manufacturers are being submarine level paranoid or if the answer will be in their embracing 3D printing/crowd sourcing (models, not money,) of smaller markets.  And markets do go through popularity swings/fads so maybe one needs that perfect storm of rules/interest/miniatures sometimes.

I acknowledge that you were talking more about incomplete efforts by manufacturers but I some times think if I want space faring anthropomorphic Mice - "M. I. S" (using the acronym) - figures I will have to find  way like (Akula?) did with his "garrison troop" space figures. 

Since I am not a manufacturer I do not know what the individual company's "break point" in designing a line of figures might be but based on observation since the 1970s I think right now a lot of companies are being risk-adverse.  Excessively risk adverse?  Perhaps. 

But if one company tries it and fails (whether related to that decision or not) I think the impact will be chilling to getting more lines completed.  It is like words - it is said that it takes nine positive comments to undo the impact of one negative comment for children (and adults?) and I think it will take several companies willing to take a perceived "risky decision" and succeeding to inspire other companies to finish (or start and finish) smaller market lines.

Gracias,

Glenn

[Conquistador]

<snip>. Also I collect things that are available...

On the other hand having decent ranges of major contemporary players is not such a far cry. Actually it is reasonable to expect to have some basic kit. 15mm is a popular scale. To be quite honest i think a bit more forethought displayed on both sides of the equation will only benefit the hobby.<snip>

Don't we all collect what is available to meet our interests?  I wish Soldados de Cuera and all those assorted North American Indians with 1680 - 1800 gear were available in 15 mm now that I see the benefit of dropping to smaller figures for retirement but for now I collect 25 mm figures of Soldados and use green stuff to try and make Eureka figures look like Califonio Indians of the era.   I never thought I would see 3 mm ACW and Napoleonic figures but I re-making those armies currently after abandoning them in 25 mm years ago.  And as I look to the possibilities in 15 mm I see it is now possible for me to start re-creating my VSF forces in 15 mm as well as re-do my SF Bugs and "SST like" Power Armor forces in 15 mm and working on 15 mm Supers so I hold out hope for historical New Spain (including pseudo-historical/fantasy Zorro)  figures in my life time.

And, yes, actually I do think your comments on contemporary figures/vehicles availability is a correct assessment but it needs to be the manufacturers who come to that conclusion (or be convinced) which I think we are beginning to see happen.

Gracias,

Glenn

[Arrigo]

Well,

if no one rants the manufacturers will think it is business as usual... sometime I think people are like pigs in the pen... we just hurl ourselves at the first mini thrown at us... of course there are in our midst compulsive collectors that just want to grab the latest miniature as there are people who just ask for the XXXX super miniature... ok once i badgered the Empress team with request for US Army Javelin... they produced it... first time I saw in the metal Keith simply put the bag in my hand... well, I annoyed them to get this thing available and then I did not even bought it... ok it was in special situation (I was about to leave UK in a couple of days and I did not have any kind of accommodation anymore I was on the point to stop my PhD... then everything was solved)  but still it was weird. And then you have the people who always drool at each new miniature and never buy them finding excuse to not do anything... well adding an off topic rant I have an acquaintance who is just that... in 6 years I know him he is just finding reasons to not do projects and to avoid to do anything... he is so depressing I decided to stop to talk with him... in 6 years he is still playing on a simple cloth with almost no terrain, you show him good alternatives  and he replies "oh but i have to print, cut, and build..." well I was thinking it was part of the hobby (ok if you dabble on BGG sometime there is someone who says that 'it is inconceivable that we need to pay for a game where we have to build and paint the pieces, it is like buying incomplete stuff' of course BGG is also the place where people call cheapo plastic blob miniatures or even suggest to replace miniatures with wooden blocks... once I had a nasty discussion with a chap on that topic... it also happen that I know the chap in real life...) I lost my patience