RoE versus Bolt Action?

[Galland]

I see that a large part of the gamers here seems to prefer Bolt Action as the primary system for WWII wargaming. I take it, that the main reason is that they now serv as some sort of Games Workshop alternative for the non mainstream wargaming community?
I fail to understand why people dont play Rules of Engagement from Great Escape Games, but then, they dont use a points system, wich I can understand is a bit anoying.
So, please, do tell me a bit about Bolt Actions WWII game, pros and cons

[Conquistador]

I never use point systems when I plan a game.


I had never heard of RoE before so I used a search engine and found this:   http://www.greatescapegames.co.uk/rules-of-engagement

I have italicized items in the copy/paste below that would have had me regretfully step back from considering buying such a set of rules for what I would see as a (for me) niche period without the experience of playing the game several times with people who are experienced with the rules first.
Paste begins.

Rules of Engagement (RoE)

This book provides gamers with all the information they need to get started with the Rules of Engagement system. Below is an outline of what the book contains, follow the link in the title to have a look at pages from the book itself.

Rules of Engagement is a tabletop wargame for two or more players that allows you to recreate battles of the twentieth century to the present day. Players use miniature soldiers on model terrain and in this 240 page hardback book you will find a comprehensive rules system that will allow you to field your troops on the battlefield.

Game rules:
The complete gaming rules covering movement, weapons, close quarters combat, artillery and more. Includes opportunity fire, hidden troops, snipers, tank support and fortifications. With clear examples and diagrams, Rules of Engagement is easily accessible yet offers plenty of depth for experienced players.

Scenarios:
Nine scenarios from take and hold missions to desperate rearguard actions. Each scenario includes specific rules covering, for example, reserves, unacceptable losses and additional orders.

The Second World War 1944-45:
A detailed history of the War on Western Front from D-Day to the Fall of the Reich. The Orders of Battle section gives listings of the forces available including company and divisional support options. Forces covered: German Grenadiers, Panzergrenadiers, Volksgrenadiers, Fallschirmjäger and Waffen SS, British Infantry, Airborne and Commandos, Canadian Infantry, US Infantry, Armored Infantry, Parachute Infantry and Rangers and the Maquis.

Hobby section:
A complete colour guide to painting your miniatures and creating a battlefield. Uniform and equipment guides for all the forces featured in the Orders of Battle including British and Canadian Infantry, British Airborne and Commandos, German Grenadiers and Panzergrenadiers, Fallschirmjäger, Waffen SS and Volksgrenadiers, US Infantry, US Airborne and the Maquis.

Paste ends.

My thoughts:

Initially I thought "240 pages of rules"?  But then I see that you include stuff I don't need/want in a rule book:  History, (and not from the early years of the war that are my interest either,) when I prefer to read history separately from the rules book; the TO&E stuff for forces I will never put on the table is extra pages to  me; and I don't need painting schemes for same.  Additionally you don't have some of the very forces I would like to consider creating for a WW2 game.

While BA isn't the "end game" of WW2 rules I think buying the rules and two supplements after playing the game several times with local fans was a good investment even if I think I possibly won't take WW2 rules into retirement.  I am thinking of trying, buying, and comparing CoC and THW's Nuts! (second edition coming) and PTO/Korean Supplements to see which, if any I might take into retirement.

Gracias,

Glenn

[King Tiger]

Using points in a historical wargame?......I'm sorry you've completely lost me 
I just throw models on the table making rumbling noises and going bang when my tank fires its big killy gun thing.

As for RoE vs BA I haven't got experience of RoE, but the idea of replacing my disposable heroes books makes my head and wallet hurt

[Barbarian]

RoE plays like WH40k with a ton of counters : meeehhh.

[Conquistador]

RoE plays like WH40k with a ton of counters : meeehhh.

Oh, I didn't know that.  [slowly backs away from the table]

Gracias,

Glenn

[soldieroftheline]

I disagree, I have played lots of RoE. You don't have to use the counters for everything, we only use something to mark suppressed etc squads, we don't use the order counters. I own and have read but not played Bolt Action (nor have I ever played 40K) but I should have thought that Bolt Action was much more WW2 40K than RoE.

RoE does have points but it calls them "Combat Effectiveness" and "Support Points". The force choices are much more restrictive than Bolt Action and there is absolutely no scope to try and build "super armies" for competition play.


edited for slight typo..

[Galland]

First of all, I know that there is some sort of style here now, where rules, counters, dice and whatnots are not allowed and deemed non kosher, however, I did write:  

I fail to understand why people dont play Rules of Engagement from Great Escape Games, but then, they dont use a points system,

Not that I wanted points in a system. RoE do NOT use a points system, something I am fine with, even though I can understand that its easier with a points system, so do you, but maybe you dont want to say it out loud? ;-)

However, I understand that Bolt Actions game system use a points system? Like MOST wargaming systems do. I am by no means a supporter of Beer and Pretzels games, in fact I hate them, I also like complicated and extensive rules. RoE on the other side is almost to simple for my taste, but we do have a lot of house rules.

So, with this in mind. Anyone here actually playing Bolt Actions game system, your comments and input would be most welcome.

[Galland]

What soldieroftheline wrote ^^

[Barbarian]

(It shall be know that I dread WH40k after playing it A LOT)
I must confess that my experience with RoE is really limited (and old), but it really tasted like a WH40k ersatz. (but with tokens)
I'll take the advice of the more experienced players though.

[Galland]

Okay Barbarian, thats fair enough. I am not a great fan of 40K either, well, I like the whole concept art thing and bla bla bla, but I havent played it in 20 years or so.

I have been contemplating buying the Bolt Action system, not really for playing, but for input and to see how they have done it. I also must confess to the fact that I am working on my own rules (with friends) as we speak, so its a bit like research.

[Barbarian]

I was tempted too, but I play WWII in 10mm, and when I saw that the rules plus the supplements needed would  cost more than my armies, I just give up on that.
I'll ebay them some day.

[Red Sveta]

You should ditch both ROE and Bolt Action, and use Chain of Command. These are the best ww2 rules produced for platoon level games. They are simply the bees knees as far as I can see for Ww2 gaming but I can see the lack of Points Lists will put off certain types of gamers. Nuts are an interesting game too, and theses  two rules are the ones for me. the others just seem to gamey by comparison.

[Galland]

Not familiar with Chain of Command. But will look in to it. I really like RoE, but it needs tweaking and lots of redoing, since the german tanks are too weak compared to reality, but thats easy enough to do. Luckily, there are unlimited with WWII test material.

[cacofold]

...
So, with this in mind. Anyone here actually playing Bolt Actions game system, your comments and input would be most welcome.

I play Bolt Action. It's taken off at the local store. The points system is great for pick up games. Friday is Bolt Action day, with 400 point missions. Saturday is open day with 1000 point games. I can roll on in on those days (or a lot of other days too) with an army of my choice and get a fairly balanced game. Stores that have regular game nights for various systems go well with point systems.  The store also runs monthly special events that are more scenario based, rather than pure-generic points games. But it's the growth in the playerbase from regular weekly points games that makes that possible.

The main selling points for the game (at least locally) are: A wide range of plastic models that are cheap (compared to GW), number of models in play (reinforced platoon, like 40k), same scale and table size as 40k so store terrain and tables can do double duty. None of these are unique to Bolt action. The rules themselves are decent. A couple bumps here and there but really any other 28mm-friendly ruleset could be substituted. It's just that Warlord has done a good job packaging up models and rules and distributing to stores.

[Conquistador]

This might help with the discussion abut BA (and CoC) since it gets into some design differences and possibly some specific factual/perception issues.

Gracias,

Glenn

Edit: darn, the link didn't post.  I will try and find it again.  Sorry.

Still looking but found this:  http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=59230.0