A Question about Medieval Livery

[Cubs]

Basically I'm trying to find out when it became commonplace for a soldier to wear his lord's livery in battle.

I'm painting up some archers to use as very early 12th century Kingdom of Antioch dudes. My first instinct was to paint them up in whatever colours because I didn't think they would have had specific liveries then, but now I'm starting to question.

I know that by the 3rd Crusade - the end of that century - it was more common, but I'm a bit uncertain of when it began.

Anyone know?

And yes Janner, I'm looking at you.

[Atheling]

Basically I'm trying to find out when it became commonplace for a soldier to wear his lord's livery in battle.

I'm painting up some archers to use as very early 12th century Kingdom of Antioch dudes. My first instinct was to paint them up in whatever colours because I didn't think they would have had specific liveries then, but now I'm starting to question.

I know that by the 3rd Crusade - the end of that century - it was more common, but I'm a bit uncertain of when it began.

Anyone know?

And yes Janner, I'm looking at you.

These are very big questions that you are asking. If i get time today I'll go into a bit of detail but it may be unlikely as I'm very, very busy.

I'll help if I can.

Darrell.

[Arlequín]

I'm not certain... but it makes sense that it began when a Lord equipped his paid soldiers at his own expense, rather than when they were required to serve at their own expense. So you buy 20 or 30 tunics in the same colour and perhaps the same number of hoods in a contrasting colour, because it looks smart. Sir Over The Hill has chosen similar colours, so to set them apart you need a symbol. Your coat of arms is a bit complicated and expensive to stitch onto each one, so maybe a torch to symbolise your notorious short-temper? So it goes...

Potentially you 'could' have some form of unifying colour scheme as early as the 12th Century, at least for the professionals. I would imagine however that formally it would be the 14th Century where it became common... I do say 'imagine' though as I really don't have a clue.  

[Cubs]

Thanks guys, an answer of "I'm not really sure," or 'Nobody knows," is actually very helpful too, because it just confirms what I'm thinking. Where there's uncertainty, the painter gets the choice!

[Ray Earle]

Troops wore field signs at Otterburn in 1388, those following Percy wearing a silver crescent, but as for a uniform coat bearing livery I think you're looking a bit later. Probably around the War of the roses.

[Crossedlances]

I read recently that livery was originally for the Lords Staff and that during the Hundred years it became more common as money was available to equip the soldiers. But if your a rich Lord at an earlier time it would have made sense to have the same livery, even if was for rallying purposes alone.

I, from the information I have read over the years, would say it started a lot earlier, most likely just after 1100 would be my best guess.

So the crusades is a great place to begin and as you say the painter has the choice.

[Atheling]

Troops wore field signs at Otterburn in 1388, those following Percy wearing a silver crescent, but as for a uniform coat bearing livery I think you're looking a bit later. Probably around the War of the roses.

Not so, as far back as the English expedition into France in 1346 we have evidence that Edward of Woodstock (the future Black Prince) kitted out his Welsh and Cheshire archers in green and white, though they were only supplied with the cloth and would have had to make their own garments. This is just one notable example there are many others, amongst the lesser Nobility too. It is certainly feasible that the concept of livery was introduced earlier then 1346!! The aristocracy saw the wearing of badges and livery as a mark of ownership (they literally saw themselves as owning the men beneath them) so it would be no surprise to me if evidence for the wearing of livery was discovered at an earlier date then the beginnings of the HYW (which technically began long before the Crecy campaign). This attitude of ownership is something that is often overlooked by students of Late Medieval warfare and shouldn't be underestimated.

Darrell.

[Arlequín]

I can't argue against that at all, but I will point out that it was a two-way thing and while the Lord would like to infer possession, the guys would also like it to be known who they worked for, not unlike wearing 'gang colours', or being 'connected' in the best traditions of organised crime.

[Cubs]

Cool. I think thus far it all points to -

1) Around 1100 is very early for soldiers to be wearing retinue colours, but it's possible.

2) Thus I can do what the hell I like!

Thanks guys, I think what I'll do is have most of the retinue with at least one garment in the red and blue of Antioch, but without a strict sort of uniform or surcoat. Knights will be in their own colours.

[Ray Earle]

Well, you learn something every day. Thanks for the reply Darrell. 

[westwaller]

I'll do is have most of the retinue with at least one garment in the red and blue of Antioch,

As long as you paint the Holy hand grenade the right colour, you are onto a winner, Cubs!!

[shandy]

According to R. Jones: Bloodied Banners, "By the 1150s it was common for lords to provide uniforms for their households, both civil and military" (p. 58). That's about the earliest he has. He refers to different sources, some literary and some chronicles. Btw, I found this to be a most excellent book, covering all sorts of martial display, including audible!
Cheers,
Shandy

[Atheling]

I can't argue against that at all, but I will point out that it was a two-way thing and while the Lord would like to infer possession, the guys would also like it to be known who they worked for, not unlike wearing 'gang colours', or being 'connected' in the best traditions of organised crime.

Absolutely true, but I think it's very clear who the real beneficiary of this relationship really was! 

Darrell.

[Lowtardog]

I normally have onions with my livery.....I will get my coat now

[Atheling]

I normally have onions with my livery.....I will get my coat now

Wah..... wah..... waaaaaaaaa  .

Darrell.