Does anyone use alternitive stats for War bows?

[Irishrover13]

I am still working on a Japanese warrior league that uses Yumi a powerful Japanese warbow that is consider to be the worlds largest style of bows and one of the most powerful non-composite bows out there. As such I find the current "bow" to be underwhelming, here is what I am thinking.

Range: 18" SV: +2 Hands Required: 2 Pluck Modifer: -1  7 points

What do you think? Same stats are a crossbow, one point more but can be fired every turn.

[Conquistador]

I find that most war gamers want to make the Welsh/English Longbow and the more powerful bows of Asia into 'uber-bows' when in reality (at the ranges in IHMN) I doubt there is much difference between being pierced by either one of these and a mere 65 - 75 (or even 50+) pound bow from the recipient's viewpoint.  In mass they could be devastating but in skirmish terms I doubt there was much difference between bows at shorter ranges in skirmishes.

Gracias,

Glenn

Yes, a little bit of an iconoclast, I admit.

[Irishrover13]

I find that most war gamers want to make the Welsh/English Longbow and the more powerful bows of Asia into 'uber-bows' when in reality (at the ranges in IHMN) I doubt there is much difference between being pierced by either one of these and a mere 65 - 75 (or even 50+) pound bow from the recipient's viewpoint.  In mass they could be devastating but in skirmish terms I doubt there was much difference between bows at shorter ranges in skirmishes.

I do traditional archery and I am not sure I completely agree with your all bows are the same theory. I was lucky enough to see some monks shooting traditional versions of these bows when I was teaching in Japan, well attending a festival. They had all weights including some with up to 120+ pound pull, and they were punching through boards and metal plates at short and long range. It gave me a new respect for Japanese bows. I would agree with the english long bow as being a volley weapon and not being much more effective then a short bow in a skirmish but these Yumi were precision bows that you could shoot in a nearly straight line or volley and it was a more powerful re-curve design. I am not trying to make a "uber-bow" I do want to try and capture the Yumi in all it engineering mastery.
Not a great videos but does explain the difference a bit.



Cheers,

Irish

[Dewbakuk]

Bows vary in performance hugely, my compound bow shoots very differently to my recurve and my horse bow is different again. That said, guns also shoot very differently to each other so the military rifle of the US isn't the same as the German one for example but they use the same stat line in the game.

Were this a game that made large use of traditional weapons then I'd agree you need more variation, however it isn't. It's a game where the 'standard' weapons are (relatively) efficient, rifled, large caliber firearms. Compared to a decent rifle, it doesn't really matter what kind of bow you are using. Therefore my Japanese bows class the same as my Sioux bows for the sake of the game.

The rules however encourage you to do whatever you want so if you want to upgrade the bow in your games then by all means go for it!

Sorry if that appears a bit abrupt at all but I'm typing on a phone at work
There is already a thread on this subject if tou want to take a look with replies from the author etc.

[Conquistador]

I do traditional archery and I am not sure I completely agree with your all bows are the same theory. <snip>

I did (past tense) traditional archery as a young person too and I freely admit I am not a an expert, I may be (have been) wrong many times in my life, and some bows shoot farther, some bows are different technologically, and so bowmen (gender generic) are simply better than others either individually or inproper formations using proper tactics for that weapon.  Not all bows are the same , sorry if that came over that way.  I just think all bows act the same in this game setting using these game mechanics.  

YMMV and you certainly can feel free to adjust things as you see fit.  

That said, IMO only, if it is available to one Player Character (PC) or one Non-PC (NPC)  it should in theory be available to all PCs and NPCs.  if you start seeing everyone and their uncle/aunt using one over multiple games that might be an indication that it is too cheap or too powerful.  

Feel free to experiment and let us know how it plays out (pun intended) in your games.

Gracias,

Glenn

[Irishrover13]

Bows vary in performance hugely, my compound bow shoots very differently to my recurve and my horse bow is different again. That said, guns also shoot very differently to each other so the military rifle of the US isn't the same as the German one for example but they use the same stat line in the game.

Were this a game that made large use of traditional weapons then I'd agree you need more variation, however it isn't. It's a game where the 'standard' weapons are (relatively) efficient, rifled, large caliber firearms. Compared to a decent rifle, it doesn't really matter what kind of bow you are using. Therefore my Japanese bows class the same as my Sioux bows for the sake of the game.

The rules however encourage you to do whatever you want so if you want to upgrade the bow in your games then by all means go for it!

Sorry if that appears a bit abrupt at all but I'm typing on a phone at work
There is already a thread on this subject if tou want to take a look with replies from the author etc.

No worries. I must this is a well written post for being on a phone. With the stats I am just trying to add verity to the bow. Bow, Crossbow and Warbow, just as there is a Carbine, Rifled muzzle loader and Rifle. I also agree about the rifle argument and I like the rule of KISS so I am not trying to just stat out the Yumi I was thinking all large and heavy draw bows.

My other reason for doing this was well Creating my Japanese list I came to see my bow monks were a little on the useless side, men with pistols had the . I have yet to see/read a AAR where anyone has used a bow to kill someone, bow carrying character tended to not bother shooting but instead charging into close combat. I am not trying to create a weapon everyone and there Granny wants to use I am just trying to balance the bow into play.

[religon]

The Japanese practitioners of the yumi are dedicated to training, even those that today demonstrate their skill at cultural fairs. You may wish to make a Talent required with this sort of weapon, Marksman or Duellist seem appropriate. For game balance, this would also prevent cheap hordes of Japanese archers with powerful weapons.

[Conquistador]

The Japanese practitioners of the yumi are dedicated to training, even those that today demonstrate their skill at cultural fairs. You may wish to make a Talent required with this sort of weapon, Marksman or Duellist seem appropriate. For game balance, this would also prevent cheap hordes of Japanese archers with powerful weapons.

This has much merit. 

Gracias,

Glenn

[Irishrover13]

The Japanese practitioners of the yumi are dedicated to training, even those that today demonstrate their skill at cultural fairs. You may wish to make a Talent required with this sort of weapon, Marksman or Duellist seem appropriate. For game balance, this would also prevent cheap hordes of Japanese archers with powerful weapons.

Here is an excellent point that I can get behind. I will make that a  trait of the weapon, edited the original stats to reflect that.

Range: 18" SV: +2 Hands Required: 2 Pluck Modifer: -1  
Warbow function as a normal bow unless the user has the Marksmen talent. Cost 7 pts

Here is an example of a war bow user.

Zen Monk Archer 27 Pts

Stats

Pluck: 5+ FV: +1 SV: +3 Speed: +3

Skills: Marksmen, Martial Artist
Gear: Lined Coat, War Bow

[lou passejaire]

i'm still not sure of the military efficency of the bow, if not used as a massive volley weapon  ... such as was used the longbow during the HYW  ...

[Mr. Peabody]

Well, this is a VSF game we are talking about.... 

My steam walkers are terrifically efficient and stylish. They also produce a powerful pomade of use to any respectable Gentleman when retiring at the Club. A well groomed moustache is de rigueur whether at afternoon tea or the dining table.

[Silbuster]

Those interested in knowing how much fear a skilled archer could inspire as a sniper/skirmisher should read the Iliad by Homer. However, I should point out that there is no such thing as a powerful bow ;only a powerful archer. The efficiency of the bow has an importance but usually at low draw weights. At steel punching draw weights, it is the archer who is key. So if a pluck modifier of -1 is desired, it should really be a talent of the archer which is important. For the sake of simplicity though, and given that there is a handy points system in the book, then modifying the cost of the weapon would be easier.

[Genghis]

Assuming Bernard Cornwell did his research correctly for his Grail trilogy, a skilled bowman could put out many shots a minute with a high degree of accuracy - even as a lone skirmisher.  In fact, when the military introduced muskets, they were a massive retrograde step (less accurate & a much lower rate of fire).  However, a soldier could be trained to fire a musket, but it took many years of training & conditioning from childhood to use a bow well.

Assuming there's a good background justification for someone being awesome with a bow, then it should be roughly on a par with a late 19th century rifle.  I concur that a skill rather than direct weapon stat increase is probably the most representative approach to this. 

[copeab]

There are two reasons to choose to use a bow when repeating firearms are available: They're cool and they're quiet.

Coolness is subjective so you really can't argue against a figure using on.

While bows are relatively silent weapons, IHMN doesn't have hearing rules, so it doesn't factor in to the game.

[oabee]

In no way knowledgeable about bows, I did come across a similar problem when creating a Company based on some of my Warmachine figures. The company features Tibetan Warrior Monks using Privateer Press's Cylena Raefyll and Nyss Hunters, some of which I have armed with bows, some with swords. If you know the figures, the bows look wicked. Plus, like Irishrover, I needed weapons with a little more reach.

So I researched Tibetan weapons and found many types of bows (gzhu: basic bow, gzhu thung: short bow, etc.), but came across a type of bow called gzhu gar ma, which is translated "A strong or tough bow." (Source: Warriors of the Himalayas: Rediscovering the Arms and Armor of Tibet, Donald LaTocca)

If you read the background for the Monks, you will find they spent five years in a secluded monastery in the Himalayas in training before putting the Company in action. So both the strength of the weapon and the skill of the archers are combined by simply using crossbow stats, also satisfying Craig's KISS principle.

Mike O

PS: The company is here:
http://wrgmr.com/blackwood.pdf

In fact, if you google "gzhu gar ma," my Blackwood PDF is the second listing. Go figure.