Questions on how to build a 1544 Tudor army

[Calimero]

I’ve received my "Tudor Army" from TAG lately and I was wondering what would be the best way to assemble it?

I will be unemployed soon again and I’m more than likely to have to paint and sell this army.

I was wondering what would be the best way to base these figures. Should I base them on individual bases? I was thinking of doing so with foot figures based on 20mm square bases and cavalry on 25 x50mm bases. Would it be a good idea? I could provide movement trays to the buyer then.

Also, could I use pikes instead of bills? I prefer pikes myself but was it common in English Tudor armies? How infantry units were organised during this period? Was it like during the Civil war with block of pikemen flanked on both sides by calivermen?

I didn’t order bowmen but just out of curiosity, were they organised in separate units?

Any tips or comments will be greatly appreciated and if some of our fellow LAFers can point me towards good reference materials that would be great too!

Cheers!

[Atheling]

I’ve received my "Tudor Army" from TAG lately and I was wondering what would be the best way to assemble it?

First question, are you going for an Early Tudor army The Battle of Flodden or a later one?

I will be able to answer your questions much more to your satisfaction with this knowledge 


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Darrell.

[Calimero]

I was planning on depicting a Tudor army for the later period (circa 1513, maybe?) But I’m open to all suggestions

[Atheling]

I was planning on depicting a Tudor army for the later period (circa 1513, maybe?) But I’m open to all suggestions

So, Flodden/War of the League of Cambrai 'period' then.

As most of the army that faced the Scots at Flodden were Northern Levies as Henry VIII and consequently his best troops were committed to the War of the League of Cambrai in France at the time. You could go for Henry VIII's army or for the Army at Flodden.

Once again, if you let me know I can be much more helpful. I will nedd something more specific as the type of armaments that the armies would have been equipped with for both campaigns would have been different 

Darrell.

[Calimero]

I was thinking more of the "French theatre of operation" (so to speak  ) maybe like the Battle of Guinegatte (1513)

[Stuart]

I might be able to help you, I've collected a Tudor army of the 1513 French campaign and working on their French counterparts now.  have a look at my blog;

www.stuartsworkbench.blogspot.com

Inbox me ( email is on my blog) if you need anything more, I can send you a decent researched army list and some flags if you like.

All the best

Stuart

[Atheling]

Stuart's blog is more then worth checking out and has a host of information and research that you won't find on any other blog on the subject of Tudor warfare. I would heartily recommend it!

And of course, it saves me time too  .

Darrell.

I might be able to help you, I've collected a Tudor army of the 1513 French campaign and working on their French counterparts now.  have a look at my blog;

www.stuartsworkbench.blogspot.com

Inbox me ( email is on my blog) if you need anything more, I can send you a decent researched army list and some flags if you like.

All the best

Stuart

[Stuart]

For interest, Henry's army of the 1513 French campaign was predominantly bill & bow as far as English troops were concerned. There were the first green shoots of homegrown pike & arquebus armed infantry but less than 5% as he hired Almain (Landsknecht) mercenaries in comparatively large numbers to satisfy this defecit.

Also unique to this army are a higher than 'usual' presence of English cavalry; heavy horse, demilancers, border horse and indifferent Burgundian gendarmes to boot.

Mounted archers and a fine artillery train also feature.

This army was a once in a lifetime occurrence for Henry, and he didn't know it, and he achieved very little with it.

Perhaps the finest equipped army of the time and the first predominantly uniformed English host. A lot of what ifs for an untested force.

The English army at Flodden were a late WOTR army with good artillery. No less stout hearted than their afore mentioned brethren but certainly poorer equipped.

Hope that helps

[Atheling]

The English army at Flodden were a late WOTR army with good artillery. No less stout hearted than their afore mentioned brethren but certainly poorer equipped.

Hope that helps

I'd like to add that there are several new books about Flodden, (about to be published) The Battle of Flodden 1513, Jogn Sadler, Flodden 1513: Scotland's Greatest Defeat, John Sadler (very much worth a read for an Osprey!), Flodden: A Scottish Tragedy, Peter Reese, Fatal Rivalry, Flodden 1513: Henry VIII, James IV and the battle for Renaissance Britain, George Goodwin (more of a political history but well worth the read as it gives a more comprehensive background than most books on the subject), Scottish Renaissance Army 15131550, Jonathon Cooper (Osprey Elite- has some useful pics). There are more but that's probably anough to go on for now.

What is lacking is books comprehensively covering War of the League of Cambrai which is why I think that Stuart and his blog will be almost priceless for information  .

Darrell.

[Stuart]

Regarding composition

The English Infantry of the French campaign were around 50/50 bow to bill of which;

The bill portion include Landsknecht pike (with accompanied arquebusiers) at a ratio of around 70/30 (bill to pike) and a very small portion of English pike.

The bow portion include a very small portion of English arquebusiers.

Of an army numbering around 34000 there were 619 pike in the Duke of Buckinghams contingent and 400 in Charles Brandon's.

As for gunners the Kings guard featured 600 who were armed with brand new imported Spanish arquebus, there are no further mention of arquebus armed troops other than the assumption that the Landsknechts would have had some.

The English army at Flodden was very much a late WOTR host,im not exactly sure of the bow to bill ratio there as I haven't really studied it in as much detail. I do know that there were a scattering of arquebusiers in the marines but I don't think there were any pike. Darrell has reccommended some decent books there which may shed light - have a look in the letters and papers of 1513 in the national archives online, they may shed some light.

The Landsknechts though intended to fight alongside the English in mutually supportive formations did the opposite - they really didn't get on and had to be separated for most of the campaign. They fought with each other in camp to the extent that there is one record of the Landsknechts turning their artillery on the English. Maximilian returned order with a number of swift executions.

Calivermen don't appear in any great numbers until the mid to late 1530's.

The TAG figures are meant for 1530-1550 and were designed around Henry's 1544 campaign in Bolougne. Sadly there are no ranges out there that fully cater for the 1513 campaign but you could easily use the figures you have, they are 20 years late as the ones I use are 20 years early. You can supplement them with landsknechts and gendarmes from foundry and flags will also help give you the period feel for whatever you choose.

Stuart

[Stuart]

Sorry I didn't mean to put you off with the last paragraph, the war of the league of Cambrai is fascinating, the Tudor army in particular is more so, who cares what figures you use, you can achieve a decent feel in the way you paint them. If you want to learn more about the evolution of the Tudor army I thoroughly recommend 'Henry VIII's Military revolution by James Raymond'

Good luck buddy 

[WuZhuiQiu]

@Atheling: Would the publication of all of those books be a coincidence, or might it have something to do with a 500th+ anniversary? 

[Calimero]

First, thanks all for your help, that’s much appreciated.

@ Stuart I've seen some of your figures before and they look great! I haven't had the time to search thru your blog yet but  I marked it for further reference and ideas (plus all the eyes candy!)

... The TAG figures are meant for 1530-1550 and were designed around Henry's 1544 campaign in Bolougne. ...

I forgot about that… frankly I've backed TAG Tudor campaign on Kickstarter when it went live hoping to build a "renaissance army". I have a general grasp of what's what in military history from the 1700 to the Vietnam War but have very little knowledge of the ancient, medieval, dark ages and renaissance periods and wanted to start "something new".

If TAG Tudor army are for the 1530-1550 period then I should plan things accordingly which bring me back to some of my original questions. Namely, can I use pikes instead of bills and can I base figures individually?

Keep in mind that the end game is to paint and sell the TAG figures I already own not so much start (for now at least) a new period.

Cheers!

[Stuart]

At that time the Tudor army was still a bow and bill composition in roughly equal proportions though within each pikes and calivers feature for around 1 in 4 bill or bowmen. Possibly a few more calivers as the 1544 campaign was predominantly a siege.

As you're selling these and are keen to do some pike why not do some research on the pike armed retinues?

This campaign was noteable for some quite interesting liveries and commanders so you could paint up a unit of pike in the relevant livery. Thus I'd base them around 12-14 on a 120 x 60mm base. That will give you a game able unit but also a small vignette / diorama to appeal to gamers and collectors alike.

And don't forget to post your Tudor eye candy result whatever you end up doing !

Hope that helps

Stuart

[Atheling]

@Atheling: Would the publication of all of those books be a coincidence, or might it have something to do with a 500th+ anniversary? 

Well, I'm not so sure, it's the 600th anniversary of Agincourt next year and I've yet to see many new books on the subject popping up.

Anyway, surely the contents of the book are what we are interested in??? 

Darrell.