Perry 8th Army Plastics equipment question

[ARKOUDAKI]

Calling all British Army buffs out there....on the Perry plastic 8th army set the bayonets are for the most part molded on the figure....but when making up SMG and weapons teams do you retain or add the bayonet to the webbing or not??

I think the mortar guy gets a bayonet but the bren and boys AT guy don't....is this right???

More importantly, does the Thompson SMG figs get a bayonet or not???

In looking at a lot of period pics I can't find out for sure and have read that some SMG guys retained the bayonet...but I can't be sure.

HELPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP......

[carlos marighela]

As a general rule, I'd say no. Weapons tend to be issued as a kit. Weapon, cleaning kit and accessories and most soldiers try to avoid carrying extraneous items where they can. That said, it wouln't necessarily be wrong as some folk have a natural or perhaps unnatural love of pointy sharp things and at a pinch a bayonet makes a serviceable tin opener, mine detector, hammer, mattock, tent peg etc etc.

The 17" blade was a little unwieldy mind. I had a teacher in my youth who had fought in New Guinea. One warm afternoon, whilst droning away about the Kings and Quuens of England, facing the blackboard, back to the class,as was his usual custom, he became fixated with a section of said board to which wet chalk or some other substance had accreted. Still facing the board he called out to one of my class mates 'Marsh, on my desk are are my car keys. I want you to go to my car, where you will find a bayonet under the front passenger seat, fetch it here and be quick about it'.

Bemused child returned with an old SMLE bayonet, which had been ground down to a more serviceable eight inch blade and which now boasted a razor edge. It's owner then spent the next twenty minutes painstakingly chipping off the gunk from the board with his bundook whilst delivering his sermon on Henry V or whoever it was. Never broke his stride.

[ARKOUDAKI]

Thanks Carlos...so for the SMG/NCO did he have a long bayonet on his kit or not???

[Cubs]

SMG's also had a bayonet issued. Since most soldiers seemed to have used the bayonet for any number of things, from opening tins to scraping mud off kit, it seems reasonable to assume they would retain the bayonet even if they didn't necessarily fix them to their weapon.

Short answer, I'd keep them on.

[Plynkes]

Since most soldiers seemed to have used the bayonet for any number of things, from opening tins to scraping mud off kit, it seems reasonable to assume they would retain the bayonet even if they didn't necessarily fix them to their weapon.

As a small child I was given a WWII British webbing kit by my dad for dressing up and playing with, complete with a pig-sticker bayonet (what was he thinking? I was about six!). The end had been refashioned into a screwdriver by the previous owner, so I presume he had not felt the need to go stabbing many Germans with it. You could still do someone a nasty injury with it, but it was no longer optimised to that purpose.

[Cubs]

Dagnammit, all my Dad gave me was sticky plasters he'd 'requisitioned' from the hospital.

Yeah, I think it's fair to say that the nature of the use a bayonet saw, even during active service, was very dictated by the type of actions the individual was involved in.

See how I tried to deliberately avoid yet another 'yes they did, no they didn't' bayonet argument?

[dijit]

As far as I'm aware, what a soldier was officially equipped with, and what he was actually equipped with, could vary a lot. So I guess do whatever makes you happy. Though I think officially they weren't equipped with them, but I'm pretty sure if someone felt the need for one, that'd get their hands on one.

[ARKOUDAKI]

So is there any official army regs??? I have searched all my library resources - Ospreys, etc - and found nothing...I even resorted to the Internet...still no help....and photos of 8th Army guys are not all that helpful.

I heard back from Michael Perry and he thinks the answer is yes for the mortar guy who carried a rifle but no for the others...although on campaign he thought the SMG might carry one...

The British bayonet is a bloody big pig sticker...so it isn't easily carried around...and if you want to dump kit and don't have a place to put it...well, I could understand losing it. But I can also understand keeping it for a variety of reasons...

So I am still confused....

Some one out there must have British army regs....HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[former user]

I don't see what army regulations have to do with the actual not discarding issued bayonets from one's kit... 

What I would like to know though - while I understand actual close combat occured in densely built areas, how likely would have been there an occasion to actually use bayonets in the desert war? I mean apart from commando actions... ?

[Cubs]

So is there any official army regs???

Some one out there must have British army regs....HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like I said, SMG's were issued with a bayonet. It was a little smaller than the rifle bayonet, but in that scale, who cares?

[Silent Invader]

When advancing into contact, fixing bayonets is as much psychological (for the humans at both ends) as it is practical.

My library is pretty light on infantry in the 8th Army in Africa but an old faithful - WW2 Combat Arms and Insignia by Martin Windrow - does have some info.  I bought this book in the late 1970s so it is somewhat dated but his remarks are supported by some photos I have seen.

To quote:

Photographs of this theatre frequently show senior NCOs wearing revolver holsters and ammunition pouches on the basic 1937 webbing.  The drum magazines for the 1928 Thompson .45 sub-machine gun would not fit in the universal pouches and were carried in a small pack - here it is slung around the body on an extra webbing brace.

There is no mention of the sword bayonet nor is one visible in the book's illustrative sketch.  Btw, as far as I am aware the Thompson wasn't converted to take the bayonet (though the Sten - IIRC not used in Africa but introduced to some units for Sicily/Italy - was issued/fitted with a pig-sticker).

However, I can also kind of contradict all of that!

Probably the easiest reference photo to find is the classic set-up of a dead 'German' surrounded by British troops. It is probably a staged shot as the casualty is wearing British shorts, puttees and boots.  In the huddle of soldiers is a what might be an NCO - rank isn't visible - holding a Thompson but his belt has the universal pouches and he has no extra small pack (see point above re drum mags).  By the soldiers left knee below the line of the shorts is the distinct silhouette of the tip of the scabbard of the sword bayonet.  However, I think this is less than reliable evidence of the bayonet being carried, as if it was a staged shot a rifleman could just have been given the Thompson for photo effect.

[Arlequín]

I don't see what army regulations have to do with the actual not discarding issued bayonets from one's kit... 

We're talking about the British Army... you just would not dare to lose an item you had been issued. The monetary value of a replacement would be the least of your worries. 

 

[Silent Invader]

Quite, Jim, quite!  

This might help. It's a photo of a unit in Italy but which previously served in Africa as part of the 8th Army.

The NCO in the lead has a Thompson and doesn't appear to have either universal pouches or a bayonet on his left hip.  If he had a revolver and small pack they'd be on the right hip and so out of sight.

http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=4389

Edit: as would be expected, you can see the sword bayonets carried by the two riflemen.

[Damas]

As my Grandad was in the 8th Army and played footsie with Rommell, he said that the first thing you did was get some Indian puttees, Italian shorts, German shirt and keep your greatcoat for the nights.   He always had a knife of some description otherwise how else did you open your rationed tin of bully beef?  No bren gunner or loader is going to wait on the kindness of others when trying to open a tin purloined from (insert enemy here).

Nearly all infantry were mechanised in Africa as the distances were too far to march and so there was always a truck nearby somewhere to carry your kit so the heavy stuff wasn't "taken by enemy action" as it was in Europe. 

[Jeff965]

Army Regs are important but the Regiment is a family in itself and many decisions about how support units are equipped are made by the CO. In other words because it happens in one Regiment does not mean it would apply in another Regiment.
No matter what your role was you would be issued a weapon which was kept in the armoury
(The serial number of the weapon was allocated to you and you were responsible for its cleanliness). Everybody got allocated a rifle except for section commanders, drivers and a few specialists who would get smg's. When you drew your weapon from the armoury you also picked up your bayonet in its scabbard and the weapon magazines, people who manned support weapons were still issued rifles/smg's because they may be called upon at any time to act as an infantryman.
In actual conflict rules change and get ignored in the Falklands conflict soldiers wanted as much weapons and ammo as they could carry so if you were given a bayonet you were not likely to hand it back as it could come in handy if only for more mundane uses that have already been described on here.
You could talk to another Squaddie and I bet there's a fair few on here and their experience would be slightly different for reasons I have already referred to.
I suppose ultimately it would not matter wether your plastic troops have different bits of kit or not as there is always a reason they may have or may not have that particular piece of equipment, and if your looking for documentation that states categorically what each person carried then all I'm saying is if you find it, it doesn't mean it was strictly adhered to.

I hope this helps, reading back over it it's a long winded way of saying do what you like .