*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
March 28, 2024, 09:15:30 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Donate

We Appreciate Your Support

Members
Stats
  • Total Posts: 1686446
  • Total Topics: 118100
  • Online Today: 811
  • Online Ever: 2235
  • (October 29, 2023, 12:32:45 AM)
Users Online

Recent

Author Topic: Saladin's Coat of Arms  (Read 9447 times)

Offline Atheling

  • Elder God
  • Posts: 11905
    • Just Add Water Wargaming Blog
Re: Saladin's Coat of Arms
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2014, 02:39:50 PM »
I checked the WRG book, and it says that a probably badge for Saladin is an eagle (not a falcon), another may be a lion (used by several family members). The book shows a shield (a drawing) with an eagle, and under the eagle a cup (for the cupbearers). A probably colour is yellow. Abbyubid elite troops used yellow coats.

Emilio.

Good point, the high aristocracy (we're talking Royalty) of Europe were the only people allowed to do any hunting with and eagle so why not the same in the Meddle East about the same time?

Darrell.


Offline Arlequín

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 6218
  • Culpame de la Bossa Nova...
Re: Saladin's Coat of Arms
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2014, 03:19:57 PM »
I'm not sure where they derive from originally, but these are supposedly based on original Ayyubid designs;


Offline Atheling

  • Elder God
  • Posts: 11905
    • Just Add Water Wargaming Blog
Re: Saladin's Coat of Arms
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2014, 03:49:45 PM »
I'm not sure where they derive from originally, but these are supposedly based on original Ayyubid designs;



I've seen those before but cannot place them......  ??? ??? ???

Darrell.

Offline Cubs

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 4911
  • "I simply cannot survive without beauty ..."
Re: Saladin's Coat of Arms
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2014, 04:40:03 PM »
I checked the WRG book, and it says that a probably badge for Saladin is an eagle (not a falcon), another may be a lion (used by several family members).


I'm sorry, but I don't see that happening at all and I think they have made an error. As already stated, any image of a living creature was seen as blasphemous. I don't see the defender of Islam doing that or getting away with it if he did. Having said that, occasionally there was a 'back door' way of doing it, by manipulating the Arabic characters into resembling the shape of the thing it described.

All I've read about Saladin reinforces what others have said about him using banners with quotes from the Qu'ran.
'Sir John ejaculated explosively, sitting up in his chair.' ... 'The Black Gang'.

Paul Cubbin Miniature Painter

Offline emosbur

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 522
    • A COVA DO TRASNO
Re: Saladin's Coat of Arms
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2014, 07:27:40 PM »
I'm sorry, but I don't see that happening at all and I think they have made an error. As already stated, any image of a living creature was seen as blasphemous. I don't see the defender of Islam doing that or getting away with it if he did. Having said that, occasionally there was a 'back door' way of doing it, by manipulating the Arabic characters into resembling the shape of the thing it described.

All I've read about Saladin reinforces what others have said about him using banners with quotes from the Qu'ran.

I understand what you say, but..... Saladin was Kurd, not arab. And most Saladin troops were turkish. These are "new" muslims. Persians painted animals and persons. Moghuls too. Ottomans too. You can find a lot of examples in the web. Saladin was the Sultan, who was going to claim?


Emilio.

Offline emosbur

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 522
    • A COVA DO TRASNO
Re: Saladin's Coat of Arms
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2014, 07:29:39 PM »
To avoid confusion, I have to say that I am talking about SHIELD badges, not standards or flags. Sorry if I wasn´t clear.

Emilio.

Offline Cubs

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 4911
  • "I simply cannot survive without beauty ..."
Re: Saladin's Coat of Arms
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2014, 07:53:19 PM »
Well that's a new one on me, I must admit.

Offline Atheling

  • Elder God
  • Posts: 11905
    • Just Add Water Wargaming Blog
Re: Saladin's Coat of Arms
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2014, 08:26:10 AM »
Well that's a new one on me, I must admit.

You just have to look at Ottoman art really..... I know it's from a later period but there was as much variation in Islam as there was in the many Christian 'sects' that grew over time.

Darrell.

Offline Arlequín

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 6218
  • Culpame de la Bossa Nova...
Re: Saladin's Coat of Arms
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2014, 09:28:17 AM »
I'm dubious, as Saladin would have taken on the mantle of 'defender of the faithful' in his position, Kurd or not and was likely more Islamic than most. However the proscription against representing living creatures does not come from the Quran itself either, but from a hadith, which are sort of 'what God would have said had he the time to tell us everything' (some of which are disputed, hence the factions within Islam), rather than his direct words to his chosen prophet.

So potentially it is possible he did use a badge and such badges occasionally appear... as at Cairo. Certainly in the present too 'secular' Arab states do use animals on their national coats of arms.

Christians occasionally gave certain enemies, or legendary figures, 'honorary' coats of arms they never had too, as a representation of their apparent nobility and it may be that the association of Saladin (or others) with a particular badge may be wishful thinking rather than historic fact.

To avoid confusion, I have to say that I am talking about SHIELD badges, not standards or flags. Sorry if I wasn´t clear.

Generally speaking shield designs were often repeated on banners, in later periods anyway. At this point I don't know, but if an individual was known by his 'badge' I would assume he would display it on banner and shield as a big 'here I am' sort of statement.

Well that's a new one on me, I must admit.

That's the joy of LAF, it is a rare day when I don't learn at least one new thing from it.  :)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 09:31:46 AM by Arlequín »

Offline A Lot of Gaul

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 325
Re: Saladin's Coat of Arms
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2014, 01:20:33 PM »
I checked the WRG book, and it says that a probably badge for Saladin is an eagle (not a falcon), another may be a lion (used by several family members). The book shows a shield (a drawing) with an eagle, and under the eagle a cup (for the cupbearers). A probably colour is yellow. Abbyubid elite troops used yellow coats.

Emilio.

The association stems from a relief depicting a stylized eagle on the west wall of the Citadel of Cairo, which was constructed under Ṣalāḥ ad-Dīn/Saladin to protect the city from the Crusaders in 1176-1183:



There is no other evidence to suggest that the eagle was used as a personal emblem by Saladin, so the identification as such is widely contested. However, it is popularly believed to be so, and the "Eagle of Saladin" is currently used in both the national flag and the coat of arms for Egypt:






Cheers,
Scott
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 01:28:03 PM by A Lot of Gaul »
"Ventosa viri restabit." ~ Harry Field

Offline Atheling

  • Elder God
  • Posts: 11905
    • Just Add Water Wargaming Blog
Re: Saladin's Coat of Arms
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2014, 02:59:47 PM »
Scott,

Bloody hell, the last image looks kind of fascist!!  :o :-[

Darrell.

Offline Cubs

  • Galactic Brain
  • Posts: 4911
  • "I simply cannot survive without beauty ..."
Re: Saladin's Coat of Arms
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2014, 03:49:04 PM »
Looks like I need to hand round some apologies because was dead wrong about this. I am really surprised because I thought Muslim societies never used images of living things.

I guess a day without learnin' something new is a day wasted.

Offline Atheling

  • Elder God
  • Posts: 11905
    • Just Add Water Wargaming Blog
Re: Saladin's Coat of Arms
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2014, 03:57:37 PM »
I guess a day without learnin' something new is a day wasted.

True, we all do it every day  :).

Darrell.

Offline A Lot of Gaul

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 325
Re: Saladin's Coat of Arms
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2014, 06:41:24 PM »
Scott,

Bloody hell, the last image looks kind of fascist!!  :o :-[

Darrell.

Hi Darrell,

Many of these eagle symbols are directly or indirectly referencing Imperial Rome, and the Eagle of Jupiter:







Cheers,
Scott
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 07:06:40 PM by A Lot of Gaul »

Offline A Lot of Gaul

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 325
Re: Saladin's Coat of Arms
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2014, 06:46:15 PM »
I am really surprised because I thought Muslim societies never used images of living things.

I guess a day without learnin' something new is a day wasted.

It's all good, Cubs... I learn new things here all the time!  :)

Cheers,
Scott


 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
3 Replies
3525 Views
Last post December 15, 2009, 09:22:26 PM
by Gluteus Maximus
8 Replies
2254 Views
Last post July 26, 2016, 12:47:19 PM
by affun
6 Replies
1283 Views
Last post November 27, 2020, 04:57:16 PM
by Atheling
5 Replies
964 Views
Last post May 24, 2021, 10:25:48 AM
by Atheling
6 Replies
1010 Views
Last post October 21, 2021, 07:13:03 AM
by Atheling