Help finding figures for Vichy French in Syria

[Arlequín]

No fantasy uniforms , no cossack or bedouin dress .

Indeed, the Tirailleurs Algériens, Marocain & Senegalais were quite similar and shared largely the same uniform as the Marins and Métropolites.

Judging by this photo of Circassians from Damascus in 1941, they too dressed very much like the ordinary Spahis, but with their own headwear.



However some of the Troupes Spéciales du Levant do appear to have worn 'Bedouin dress' judging by this cigarette card from the 'L'armee Française' series of 1935, showing the Méharistes  and they would compare favourably with the uniforms worn by the British 'Arab Legion' too.



With the Druze looking more conventional, with just the Keffiyeh distinguishing them from the Spahis.



The Chasseurs Libanais apparently wore normal infantry uniform with a Turkish-style Fez, as in Lou's post.

The full series can be found here: http://collmili95.skyrock.com/16.html

[former user]

so, how regular is then gandourah, Djellabah, Bournous and seroual worn by native troops?

and what about these?

[lou passejaire]

this pic is from around 1925, when colonel Collet create the  "groupement Tcherkess" as irregular suppletives .
( it seem's that the caucassian uniform was used as some kind of ceremonial uniform till the end of the war ) .



gandourah, Djellabah, Bournous were worn by native "irregular" troops such as the "goumiers" , not by regular infantry units .

the numerous ( 50 ) squadrons of syrian and lebanese cavalry were "regular" syrian and lebanese troops , local head dress french uniform and hadrian helmet , and french commanding officers  

BTW, yes the mehariste use seroual, when camel mounted ... so the 3 companies of meharistes in syria can be depicted as shown by Arlequin .

[former user]

I have difficulties to explain these pictures then
Spahi 1940



returning from Switzerland, and I can clearly see gandourah and Bournous on campaign....

and Beirut 1940

[pacofeanor]

former user and passejair, you are right all together 

The Gandoura ((light" sand color"  long coton shirt) was worn by all spahis and some of FFL cavalry (1st and 2nd REC) and some chasseurs d'afrique (not all and not in all theatres!),in campaign dress.

 but for levant's troops, it is right that the combat dress is in french dress with just local head dress (haïc for arabs, black bonnet for circassians etc ....) no burnous (except the red/blue for algerian /morocan spahis  for nights  and winter dress,but during the syrian campaign the weather was very hot! ), dejlabas (only morrocan tabor and only after 1943) or "black dress" for circassians!

in fact, concerning the Syria in 1941 there is only some rare  photographs (in France !) of "fighting" vichy troops ! a lot for Free frenches and british troops or Vichy troops but in peace time, with all the colorfull dress of colonial forces ! Is there good fighting photos in english books ?

bestregards
paco

[Arlequín]

There are very few photos of Vichy troops any where, which is the problem... I had to use my very poor schoolboy French to find those I did. If any exist it is obvious that our francophone members are best placed to find them, especially those with an interest in the period.

This is turning into a very interesting thread, so please continue.

[pacofeanor]

Like for campaign of France 1940 or american civil war, southern armies  , the best way to see real campaign dress of a defeated army is the photos of the winner, wich show  prisonners or dead in the real campaign dress , it the reason why i ask iff english books shows french Vichy troops !

best regards
paco

[Arlequín]

the best way to see real campaign dress of a defeated army is the photos of the winner, wich show  prisonners or dead in the real campaign dress , it the reason why i ask iff english books shows french Vichy troops !

We are British, we might invite our defeated opponents to afternoon tea, but certainly not photograph their dead. 

 

[former user]

from what I read, the Vichy collaboration was pretty much kept under the blanket by Allied propaganda before 1943, and afterwards and in retrospective pasted over by the french themselves, so far as to deny recognition to the free french forces or the mainly leftist resistance. To my knowledge the faschist background of the Vichy administration and the post-war consequences of it are still not widely aknowledged even today in the french public.
Therefore, the only pictorial material I can expect is from private archives, because the Vichy propaganda is most likely still kept locked if not entirely destroyed.

[pacofeanor]

yes you are right , and after 1943 the fratricide fighting of 1940, 41 have to be forgot to forge a new french army with old vichy one and free frenches inside the same structure . And after 1944 the same in France for administration judges, police etc ..... so Syria is not a simple subject to find in photos!

the second fact is that when an army is loosing a battle or a whole  campaign no one have time to take photos ! it is the same for 1940 in France, confederates during ACW , etc and harder is the campaign , rarer are the photos! ....

 Every soldiers that  took photos , took photos of deads (yes the british too !), for two reasons ,

- to show at friends and family at home  that the guy taking photos was at the hot place,
- it is a psychological mechanism, "i show you the enemy dead, that is a proof for you and for me that i am alive!" it s very classical in each veteran photo album i've seen (british,US,  german or french from WWI and WWII ) i've got exemples  in my family for very educated and civilised persons !!!!they all took photos of dead guys in a time where photos were rare and expensives ,you had to choose each of them conscientiously  and christian moral very important and against those type of photos!

regards
paco

[Arlequín]

Yes I can see that, both in regard to the photos and what you say in 'rebuilding France'. In Britain I also get the impression that post-WWII the fighting between British and French was also conveniently forgotten and indeed de Gaulle's role was generally inflated too. A whole host of WWII myths seem to have been created though and it is only as an adult that I am finding out a more even view of the history, which in some cases conflicts greatly with what I was taught about it as a child.

[Etranger]

Unfortunately for your theory the French MOD Historical site has an exhibition dedicated to the Vichy forces http://www.ecpad.fr/la-photographie-de-larmee-de-vichy-1941-1943
http://www.ecpad.fr/les-forces-francaises-vichyssoises-combattent-durant-la-guerre-de-syrie


Lots of other pictures from Vichy on the site too.

[pacofeanor]

Ten photos is "lots of photos " ?

 i'm still waiting (and i presume it will be long again in the futur) to find "CAMPAIGNING" photos of the fighting between french vichy forces and Free french !  in the two lot you show us, there is only one which can be concidered as "in campaign". one photo is not a lot of photos!


regards
paco

[former user]

well, a few is at least a start

I find this one especially interesting...


is this some sort of physical exercise?

[cdr]

Hello
A good intro in French is Armes Militaria magazine n° 50 De l'Irak à la Syrie  1941 (2003)
Nice series of photos and colour illustrations of French vehicles (r35, ft17, white armoured car)

Carl