Khurasan's 15mm Cold War Soviet Motor Rifles

[Brummie Thug]

AngusPodgorny 1969 I've had this happen with many comapnys even Hasslefree miniatures where an order hasn't been shipped and no notification has been sent.

I think your being a bit harsh in your comments saying they are unreliable I have ordered from Khurasan a few times and had no problems what so ever despite not getting any notification of it shipping and sometimes with the Postal service here and over there being the way it is waiting a few weeks for your mini's is usually a given.

If your going to put some sort of comment about your own personal experience don't do it in a place where its not really meant to be and perhaps you won't get so many people jumping up and down on you for it.

[Arlequín]

Is this a private discussion, or can anyone join in?  

I see you've singled me out at length as providing bad customer service on a roundup of 15mm Modern Miniatures (which Lead Adventure then chose to sticky).

Actually the thread was a sticky when it first began and has since had a number of edits. I have not got the time or inclination to go back over every post to check things have not been changed since they were posted and I rely on people dropping me a PM to say they are not happy about something.

I also agree that you have not been singled out, as other similar comments were expressed with regard to other companies.

However I am not sure that late or slow delivery really counts as 'poor/bad service'... personally I'd put that as when you don't get all or part of your order, the order does not arrive within a month and the vendor is unresponsive etc. etc. - as you mention.

If you find that having them noted in a review is unpleasant then only YOU can change them. Do something different. But don't blame customers for discussing things you yourself have noted here and on your website (which includes a lengthy disclaimer about shipping times/service reliability!).

Sometimes when we review things and concentrate on a solid and precise entry, it can come across the wrong way. I'd never encourage someone to lie on behalf of a company, but by the same token whatever people write, even with the best of intentions, can seem harsh and negative, rather than fair and objective... while it does not harm the reviewer, it harms the company, which might not actually be deserving of the criticism. I'm not a customer so I can't say either way.

Some companies do indeed get products to you the day before you order them (seemingly), while others, even those who are full time businesses, can take quite a bit longer (months even). We are perhaps too used to 'excellent' service and class it as the norm, when in fact it isn't.

In my opinion - and I mean 'my' opinion, what may seem as slow delivery is in fact 'usual' and from other comments, that doesn't seem to be an issue in the main... which could imply your comments are perhaps at least ungenerous. By all means applaud excellent service, but be wary of being negative about what appears to be just 'slow' service.

If a manufacturer does something actually 'wrong', then I'd call them out on poor service certainly... so sending miscasts or broken miniatures, refusing to replace same and the points I mentioned above, then fair enough.  

All that said, is the review still a fair one?

[AngusPodgorny1969]

After the owner of Khurasan expressed displeasure with the review I edited the entry to remove anything that might be both negative and subjective. I left the positive comments and added the owner's own extensive comments on reasons for service delays without any sort of qualitative judgement. It's just a statement of fact as made by Khurasan's owner (I don't know the individual's real name and it appears that it's not revealed on his site).

I feel that the heads up on service delays with Khurasan is important to an honest entry since the owner himself takes great pains to post the rather extensive disclaimer. And on this forum he went further decribing his processing estimate in the disclaimer as overly optimistic (i.e. service times are actually longer than in the disclaimer).

All companies experience the random hiccup in service but with Khurasan, for the reasons that he states, service times can be even longer than expected.

There's also a fairness issue to other companies in posting honest entries. Other companies have made the investments needed to provide everything from reasonable to top notch service. They incur those costs which means less money in their pockets but better ssrvice to their customers. Like Khurasan they're often small operations but still manage service as good or bettsr than any other online merchant such as Amazon (Scale Creep and GZG are good examples).

Khurasan either cannot or will not make those same investments to provide the same level of service.

At the end of the day I strongly feel that we must be fair to all parties. That means providing readers with honest entries and treating all manufacturers equally. If some mfgs invest in better customer service through staffing and inventory management while others not only choose not to but also use the lack of that investment in their own agreement with customers to explain or justify slower service then that should be noted to LAF readers.

Over on sites like Frothers companies are often treated unfairly. On sites such as TMP they often carry weight that puts readers/members at a disadvantage. One of the best attributes of LAF is its civilized discourse. But civilized discourse can also mean honest discourse.

The issue here isn't an entry about Khurasan. It's about the drivers for Khurasan's disclaimer which they feel is both neccessary and doesn't even go far enough. If the disclaimer reveals an unpleasant truth then don't conceal or hide the disclaimer.  That's dishonest.  Address the business issues that mske the disclaimer neccessary in the eyes of Khurasan's owner.

In other words, don't shoot the messenger.  :-)

In any case, if the mods want the disclaimer and Khurasan's evaluation of the disclaimer removed from the entry then I shall do so.  But I think that would be dishonest to LAF readers and unfair  to companies which invest in solid customer service. The best solution for Khurasan is to reinvest profits in inventory and staff to make the company more competitive wrt customer service.

[AngusPodgorny1969]

The aspect I dislike most about forums such as TMP and Frothers is the drama.

To that end, and against my better judgment, I've removed anything that might remotely resemble a "review" from the 15mm figure source sticky. All company entries include a brief description of their offerings and website. Please note this was NOT a decision made by the moderators and I alone am responsible for it.

Caveat Emptor
  


Over time I'll add more detail to the listings with respect to specific figure lines each company offers (again, just listings, no qualitative discussion). Some companies offer wonderful and unique figures beyond the usual "Guy with Assault Rifle".  I'm thinking especially of Khurasan's Post-A mutants and civilians and Rebel Minis.

[AngusPodgorny1969]

No need to shout -- I haven't berated you, instead I've explained why many people would disagree that delivery delays for orders translate as "poor customer service"  -- for many, probably most, of my customers that does not seem to be true.  For you, customer service might mean getting an order a week after you placed it, all the time, or getting e-mail updates about any delays, and being able to "peruse" my website whenever you want.  But by and large I have no complaints about my customer service, except for people who have your priorities, who as I mention seem to be a minority of buyers.

Actually, you're making an assumption about me.  On my very first order with you I mentioned that shipping times were not a problem when I inquired about the delay. I just wanted to make sure the order didn't get lost. I even told you specifically to not sweat it once you confirmed that you had the order. I'm one of those gamers who often doesn't paint his stuff for weeks or months (years!?!?) after getting them so order time really is irrelevant to me personally.  But for some it is an issue, especially relative to their experience with other companies. Even in this "cottage industry" there are small ops that manage service like the big guys. This is 2014 and the internet has made things a lot easier with respect to managing customer expectations and the experience. It's not 1984 with our only options being snail mail and phone calls.  Even "ticklers" can be automated and are automated by many small companies.

Anyway, all of this is moot. I've deleted anything that looks like a review.

If you'd like to suggest a list of your products that should appear in the entry please post in that thread and I'll edit the entry.

We use your moderns as well as your post-A and sci-fi figures for current and near future gaming so I'd recommend all of those listing as appropriate.  The way the LAF forums are organized the "near future" stuff is lumped in with sci-fi and it really is sci-fi, not hardcore near future.  Meanwhile, I think that most modern gamers see our period as post-war to near future (maybe 20-50 years out).

[Arlequín]

Anyway, all of this is moot. I've deleted anything that looks like a review.

That should certainly keep everyone happy, although I did not intend for you to feel you had to be totally neutral. Opinion is valid as long as it is shown to be exactly that.

A while back we had a thread about [Redacted] and loads of members commented about what I would call appalling service; orders not fulfilled, figures missing and all of that, on top of very slow delivery times at best. It wasn't as if they were a small company either.

My own experience of them was that I got what I ordered in about two weeks from ordering and for me it was a pretty reasonable order (100 figures or so). Had I reviewed them, I would have probably said that service was pretty good, although clearly that was not the general experience. 

I imagine that a few folk here have seen adverts promising 'the finest', or 'most detailed' figures around and all that, but my opinion of some of them is not fit to print. However some people rave about some of them as if they are the best thing ever.

If the only person disagreeing with a review is the manufacturer, then it's just generally just a matter of opinion as far as I'm concerned. If others feel there's some inaccuracy, that's a different matter. I want to be fair to all and as you pointed out, as LAF is a independent site, we do not have to worry about upsetting sponsors, nor can any individual put pressure to bear to correct unfavourable comments.

However all members are considered equal.   

[AngusPodgorny1969]

That should certainly keep everyone happy, although I did not intend for you to feel you had to be totally neutral. Opinion is valid as long as it is shown to be exactly that.

I think a good solution is to keep the source listings completely neutral and if we as members have opinions as to service or product quality we can express those in the threads.  That way LAF still provides a valuable service to the community as both objective source of information and subjective guidance for buying decisions.

On that note I'd like to point out that, whatever my views on Khurasan's disclaimer, I still strongly recommend them as a source of figures.  It's not like he's going to take your money and deliver nothing. On the contrary, you'll get some of the best figures for your money from any source and you WILL get them.

And as he points out above, whatever the delay one might experience you will get years of enjoyment out the product. As I type this we have a game in progress on our game table and one of the forces includes Khurasan figures (waiting for our boys to return from camp to finish up). Their larger size and raised detail provide them with a striking presence on the tabletop. Running games at our FLGS I always get positive comments on his figures, especially the "Not-Halo" guys which are among our favorites.

[Khurasan Miniatures]

My disclaimer is to alert people to a possibility, not a probability. And it's not a concession of poor customer service. If I thought I were providing poor customer service I would not be selling models anymore. It's more of an acknowledgment of what I think is true not only for me but all part-time miniatures companies who outsource casting.  I've seen people gripe on occasion about all of the companies similarly situated, and I understand because I'm in the same position. I want people to understand that going into the transaction, so I have a disclaimer.

I can't really speak to the particulars of any issues anguspodgorny1969 may have had, because he will not tell me who he is, in private messaging. He asserts he feels that would be unethical because then he'd get preferential treatment, but of course I wouldn't do that, and I'm not sure what preferential treatment would even benefit me at this point, as he's already made his statements on the internet.