The Best Sources/Manufacturers of Afghan Regular and Irregular Flags?

[Atheling]

OK Folks,

Sorry for the appereance of a double post but the two topics really are quite separate.

The title really says it all, I'm looking for the best sources and/or manufacturers of Afghan Flags as used in the by Afghan Regulars and Irregulars in the 1880's.

Any help will be greatly appreciated 

Thanks,
Darrell.

[Hobbit]

I've no idea if anyone makes any.

I know a chap by the name of John French who used to be very active with the Victorian Military Society's wargames sub-group. They were very active in the mid/late 90s and included NWF/2nd Afghan War in their repertoire. A year or two back I asked John for any info he had on Afghan flags as someone had posed the same question to me. John's recollection was that there was very little hard info on Afghan flags and that they'd gone with "best guess" designs. IIRC these were mostly rectangular or triangular, single primary colour with gold tassels/fringes and holy text/slogan on them.

Hope that gives at least a little useful info.

(E&OE)

[Atheling]

I've no idea if anyone makes any.

I know a chap by the name of John French who used to be very active with the Victorian Military Society's wargames sub-group.

John French the author of "Victory in the East, Western Warfare in the Age of the Crusades and the Foundry India book?

A year or two back I asked John for any info he had on Afghan flags as someone had posed the same question to me. John's recollection was that there was very little hard info on Afghan flags and that they'd gone with "best guess" designs. IIRC these were mostly rectangular or triangular, single primary colour with gold tassels/fringes and holy text/slogan on them.

Well the

rectangular or triangular, single primary colour with gold tassels/fringes

is not going to be too hard but the

holy text/slogan on them

is going to be a killer, especially as language tends to change quite fluidly over time. you just have to read the first hand military accounts of even the Second Afghan War to see this elucidated before your eyes.

Thanks for your help Hobbit 

Darrell.

[ARKOUDAKI]

There were quite a few Afghan standards captured and held in various Regt Museum collections. The NAM had some graphics of them on display a few years back when they did their special Afghan Wars exhibition...great stuff!

In general, Sikh and Afghan standards share shape similarities (being triangular) and some similar use of organic colors. Sadly I haven't seen any truly accurate Sikh or Afghan standards in miniature....perhaps with the onset of Musketeer's Sikh War range I can give GMB another push to see if Grahame can get them done...I have the research materials so it is just a matter of finding an artist that can recreate them with accuracy and attention to detail. Same goes for Afghan standards.

[Stuart-H]

How quickly do you need them as Iain at Flags of War will be doing irregular flags for me to go with my Afghans (and Sikh's) in the next couple of months, hopefully in time for Derby in October.

[Atheling]

There were quite a few Afghan standards captured and held in various Regt Museum collections. The NAM had some graphics of them on display a few years back when they did their special Afghan Wars exhibition...great stuff!

In general, Sikh and Afghan standards share shape similarities (being triangular) and some similar use of organic colors. Sadly I haven't seen any truly accurate Sikh or Afghan standards in miniature....perhaps with the onset of Musketeer's Sikh War range I can give GMB another push to see if Grahame can get them done...I have the research materials so it is just a matter of finding an artist that can recreate them with accuracy and attention to detail. Same goes for Afghan standards.

I might be able to do just that, I've got a degree in Fine Art and I'm not too bad with a brush. Just paint them up on an A4 sheet and reduce them down to size. Then pop off to the printers...... bob's your unkcle I'm in business making banners, standards and flags!! 

Seriously, I'm going to be doing a lot of heraldry in this way and plan on selling it as well as using it for my own armies etc.

Darrell.

[Atheling]

How quickly do you need them as Iain at Flags of War will be doing irregular flags for me to go with my Afghans (and Sikh's) in the next couple of months, hopefully in time for Derby in October.

That would certainly do unless in the event that I fail to source something earlier Stuart  .

Darrell.

[Mad Guru]

Hey guys,

Here are links to a pair of TMP threads I've participated in over the years dealing with Afghan regular army and also tribal flags:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=278404

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=182744&page=1

...and here's direct lnk to the "Afghanland.com" page featuring a collection of Afghan flags and emblems ranging from ancient to modern times:

http://www.afghanland.com/history/flags/flags.html

Hope that's of some use!
 

[Atheling]

Thanks Gad Guru,

You may well have come to the rescue again! 

I've bookmarked the TMP links (maintainance time  ) and taken a look at the Afghan.com flags.... actually quite chocking to see how much outside infuluence (and that's putting it mildly!) that there has been in Afghanistan! Of course I knew most of this but having it illustrated chronologically (be it in the form of the changing national Flag or not!) is still shocking.

Thanks again,
Darrell.

Hey guys,

Here are links to a pair of TMP threads I've participated in over the years dealing with Afghan regular army and also tribal flags:

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=278404

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=182744&page=1

...and here's direct lnk to the "Afghanland.com" page featuring a collection of Afghan flags and emblems ranging from ancient to modern times:

http://www.afghanland.com/history/flags/flags.html

Hope that's of some use!
 

[Hobbit]

Having quickly skim read the TMP posts I notice a couple of suggestions that the banners should be triangular and with Churchill being given as a reference.

Churchill describes a gathering where the tribesmen have "gay banners of every colour, shape and device" and in another place specifically describes red banners but I'm not aware of anything in his writing to suggest that triangular banners were a dominant shape.

As always I'm very happy to be corrected  

Anyway, moving swiftly on, there is a photo from the aftermath of Saraghari in 1897 showing 3 captured (and apparently triangular  ) tribal banners. Unfortunately the only online copy I can find isn't as good as it could be:

[Atheling]

An old thread I know, but one that is probably if interest to folk now with the release of the Artizan Second Afghan War Range with the Perry's soon to be in on the act too:

Found this on Wiki:

"The flag of Afghanistan between 1880 and 1901. The file is a solid black rectangle, and we also use it for the "black banner" of early Islam, i.e. the "Abbasid flag", i.e. the black flag used in the Abbasid Revolution from 747; equivalent in appearance but with a more intuitive (albeit misspelled)"

So, I'm thinking an all Black rectangle for the Regulars but I still haven't got the foggiest for the Irregulars and I need to have at least one banner pronto!  

Also from Wiki:

"After the assassination of Nader Shah of Persia who ruled over most of what is now Afghanistan, local leader Ahmad Shah founded the Durrani Empire in 1747, centred in Kandahar and considered the beginning of modern Afghanistan. After the collapse of the empire in 1823 its flag, a green-white-green triband, remained in use in the Emirate of Herat (1818-1842).…"

See Below:

Darrell.

[Hu Rhu]

Anyway, moving swiftly on, there is a photo from the aftermath of Saraghari in 1897 showing 3 captured (and apparently triangular  ) tribal banners. Unfortunately the only online copy I can find isn't as good as it could be:

I don't think those banners are triangular.  They are simply rectangular ones that naturally fold into that shape when held static. I seem to remember that our colours on display adopted that shape naturally. Here is an example:
 

[HerbyF]

I am not sure, but I think I remember there being an article in the Savage & Soldier many, many years ago. I did a number of flags & cavelry banners for my Pathans from that information. What I can remember is that most of the flags were triangular or square, but some were rectangular. They might be plain or fringed. Greens, reds, yellow & black being the most common. Cresent moons, stars & orb or full moons were common. Flags might be a plain color or divided horizontally, vertically, or diagonally. 

[Atheling]

I am not sure, but I think I remember there being an article in the Savage & Soldier many, many years ago. I did a number of flags & cavelry banners for my Pathans from that information. What I can remember is that most of the flags were triangular or square, but some were rectangular. They might be plain or fringed. Greens, reds, yellow & black being the most common. Cresent moons, stars & orb or full moons were common. Flags might be a plain color or divided horizontally, vertically, or diagonally. 

Thanks, I'll be painting one up this afternoon so this info has come at a great time.

Is there anywhere where it is possible to get back issues of Savage & Soldier?

Darrell.

[Mad Guru]

Darrell,

Here's a link to a page over at TMP on which you can find Bob Burke's direct email address.  Bob is the "Keeper of the Flame" when it comes to back-issues of Savage-&-Soldier magazine and also back-issues "The Heliograph", which was a newsletter/magazine dedicated to The Sword And The Flame rules set...

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=360100

Bob has an Index which I believe lists all the articles from all the years Savage & Soldier was in publication, which was a long time.  I know it began as the only publication dedicated soley to colonial wargaming in 1965 and I got a 20th anniversary t-shirt in 1985 and I think it remained in publication for another decade after that, so maybe 30 years altogether.  It was a wonderful resource and at the time a one-of-a-kind forum for sharing new ideas related to the niche within a niche of colonial wargaming, kind of like what Slingshot was to Ancient Wargaming back in the day, but with a smaller readership.

I may actually have the article HerbyF refers to above.  I'll look around and see if I can dig it up and if so, I'll post the info here.