A Few Battlesystem Second Ed (Mass combat) Questions

[thebinmann]

So I am soon to start my 6mm battlesystem project and I had a few questions. I Wonder if any of you have any suggestions....

1. I have always thought bows firing twice was a massive advantage against crossbows, I considered allowing bows to fire in either the move or the fire step rather than both. I wondered if any one else had changed the rules in the book. Another alternative would be to allow them to fire once and crossbows to be fired only if there was no movement/half move max.

2. I have changed the forced march rule to a percentage of move rather than a standard 6", I think 50% the same as charge is easiest (though maybe more for some troops, see below)

3. I don't think the movements for some of the troops are "fair", Dwarves moving 6" and Ultraheavy Cav moving 12" (the same as elves and men) seems wrong. Have any of you adapted these rules? Another way round this would be giving some untis higher force marched movement....

Thanks

Binmann

[m4jumbo]

Always happy to talk about Battlesystem.

1. Personally I always seem to be more nervous about facing the heavy crossbow than the long or short bow.  While bows getting to fire 2x vs the crossbow's 1x is a big plus, I think things are evened out somewhat in that the crossbow ranges are a bit longer than the bows (an extra 3" at long ranges) and the deadly d8 damage of the heavy crossbow makes a big difference. 

I've seen a house rule that keeps the ability for bows to fire 2x, but only allows bows to fire in only one of the movement steps, plus the missile step.  That would make it easier for a unit in range of a bow armed unit to maneuver out of LOS or range without getting shot in both movement steps.  We haven't played with that modification yet, but I think it's worth trying out. 

2. Basing the force march distance on a percentage of the troop's movement allowance sounds reasonable.  We use the forced march rule as is but I can see where having the same 6" bonus no matter the base move seems a bit odd.  Dwarves do love being able to double their move by force marching.

3. Do you feel that Dwarves and/or Ultra Heavy Cav move too slow or too fast at 12"? 

-Dan

[thebinmann]

Thanks a lot M4!

Yes you are right about the D8, it's been a while since I played.

For the move I think even an armed knight on a horse can move faster than a foot peasant so 12" is too little, have you used ultra heavy at all?

Dwarves moving 6" seems too slow too, half the move of men seems too slow. I might push it to 9", the same or Kobolds etc....

What do you think

[m4jumbo]

All the troop stats are based off of 2nd edition AD&D so that's where the 6" Dwarf movement rate comes from.  They may be a bit slow, but they have several troop choices with good armor and higher damage weapons, plus high morale overall.  I think their slower movement is part of what defines them as AD&D Dwarves and gives the army character.   If you bump up their movement, you might want to increase their points cost as well. (If you are using point costs.) 

Likewise the Ultra Heavy Cavalry movement is low because of AD&D encumbrance rules.  Ultra Heavy horses have plate mail barding, plus a heavily armored Knight in plate mail riding on them.  The AD&D encumbrance rules for this would knock the horse's movement rate down by 1/2 or 1/3, giving them the 12" move.   The Players Handbook mentions that a war horse fully equipped with plate barding can manage little more than a steady trot at top speed.

Looking at human infantry you can see the effects of heavier armor and encumbrance rules on movement rates.  Light infantry 12", Medium infantry 9", Heavy infantry 6".

We use Ultra Heavy Cav and even with the slower movement, they are brutal.  When they charge something, they usually put a lot of hurt on it.  I think their slower speed helps balance out the damage they can soak up (4 hits) and the damage they can put out.  Again, if you do decide to raise their movement rate, you should probably increase their point cost as well.

[thebinmann]

Thanks for all the info!

OK I see, I haven't played D and D for a very long time, maybe 20 years.... so I'll stick to the rules as they are in the book.

I did have just a few more questions:

1. If I understand correctly bows can choose to fire in each move step, rather than holding the second shot to the missle round.

2. If a unit fails a charge int check hey can't charge, but are they shaken? I don't think so as the rules don't state this, but a failed forced march results in shaken.

3. I don't understand why gold dragons have 10D12 breath damage if 4 is that max damage they can do, will they ever roll ten ones? Or is it counted as ten different die rolls?

4. When charging you get extra AD I guess this means for ten cav you get 20D8 and not 10 times 2D8?

5. do you use melee advantage for size of model?

And now I am ready to play, when I set the table up!

Thanks again

[m4jumbo]

1. If I understand correctly bows can choose to fire in each move step, rather than holding the second shot to the missle round.

-Correct.  As mentioned above, a house rule is to only allow bows to fire once in either of the movement steps, plus once in the missile step.  We haven't played that way yet, but next time we do I think we will see how that works.

2. If a unit fails a charge int check hey can't charge, but are they shaken? I don't think so as the rules don't state this, but a failed forced march results in shaken.

- This isn't clarified very well in the book.  My take on a failed Charge Initiation check is that the unit cannot charge that turn.  They can move normally (including contacting an enemy through normal movement) and they do not become shaken.  A failed Forced March does result in the unit becoming Shaken.

Here is an old post I wrote on this question on the Battlesystem Yahoo group:
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My opinion on this would be that a unit failing a Charge Initiation check cannot charge at all that turn (regular or opportunity charge) but could make a normal move that turn.

I'm basing this on info from pg 18 under Charge Initiation Checks and pg 32under Performing a Charge. Both sections state that a unit failing the chargeinitiation check cannot charge during the current turn, but neither mentions any other adverse affects, such as becoming shaken.

My interpretation is that a Charge Initiation Check is different from a General Morale Check. (Hopefully this doesn't come across as wordy and complicated, it is only about a fun game of toy soldiers after all. But a little rules clarification discussion is good for adding some activity to the group.)

On pg 18 under Effects of a Morale Check, it states that "Morale checks are made for a variety of reasons." Charge initiation checks are mentioned first, next are rally checks, then it goes on to state, "A morale check made for any other reason is known simply as a general morale check."

The paragraphs following are then separated by headings according to General Morale Checks, Charge Initiation Checks and Rally Checks. Each section calls out what happens if you pass or fail the appropriate check. Under Charge Initiation Checks, it only says that failure of the check results in the unit not being able to charge that turn, or in the case of failing a check to cross an obstacle, the unit ceases movement.

Later in the rules, Discipline Checks also fall under the category of morale checks that aren't General Morale Checks.

Further leading me to believe that Charge Initiation Checks, along with Discipline Checks differ from General Morale Checks is that on the reference sheet, Morale Triggers are separated into General Morale Check, Charge Initiation Check and Discipline Check categories.

That, in too many words, is my interpretation anyway.

I think the rulebook could have done a better job clarifying the differences between the various types of moral checks. But there's no such thing as the perfectly written rule book, and if there was, we wouldn't have rules questions to discuss.
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3. I don't understand why gold dragons have 10D12 breath damage if 4 is that max damage they can do, will they ever roll ten ones? Or is it counted as ten different die rolls?

- The 4 hits maximum damage section in the rule book incorrect and was covered in the errata below.  

CREATURES WITH SPECIAL ATTACK DICE
Some creatures make attacks requiring more than one die roll (AD 2d12, for example). To determine the hits for such attacks, follow these steps: roll each die individually, determine the hits caused by each die, and then add the total hits together. It is possible for a single attack to cause more than 4 hits. (The method in the Battlesystem rulebook is incorrect.)

Example One: An adult copper dragon (AD 3d10) breathes on a unit of goblins. Three ten-sided dice are rolled, with results of 7, 1, and 6. According to the combat conversion table, these rolls cause hits of 2, 0, 2 The unit suffers a total of 4 hits from the attack.

Example Two: A shot fired from a trebuchet hits its target, causing AD 3d12 hits. The die rolls are 11, 8, and 5. The hits caused by each roll are 3, 2, and 1, for a total of 6 hits.

4. When charging you get extra AD I guess this means for ten cav you get 20D8 and not 10 times 2D8?

- Correct.  The charging bonus equal additional attack dice rolled, 2x AD for charging Cavalry and 1.5x AD for charging Infantry.

5. do you use melee advantage for size of model?

- We don't use the Melee Advantage for the size of models (#4) but we do use the others (#1-3).

Just thinking now, it might be an interesting to try giving Giants a special melee advantage rule to represent the long reach of their massive clubs.

Here is a link to official Battlesystem Errata that was published by TSR.

 +++    Battlesystem Errata   +++
 
Post some pics of the game if you get the opportunity.  

-Dan

[thebinmann]

Wow thanks for all that!

I lust say that charing inf. groups makes the Rolling one and a half dice impossible.

I think I will use your house rule for archers, others cav etc can be cut down if the player charges in the second step!

I agree that perhaps giants should get the bonus, as they are esier to hit etc. But humans vs gobbos seems much too unfair.

Good point on charging and discipline, they are the same really. I may perhaps revise the forced march rule to be if the roll is failed then the unit can decide no to be pushed...


To start with I am playing the games from the book, but after when I start to create things I intend to use the bonus points for extra stuff in the back of the book fir all races not just humans.

I wondered if there was a site with new "official" listings for things like drow.

I will start soon and let you know when I post something, it's in 6mm btw

Thanks aging for all the help

[m4jumbo]

I lust say that charing inf. groups makes the Rolling one and a half dice impossible.

Fractions are all rounded up in Battlesystem, so a unit of 5 charging infantry would get 8 dice. 

Happy gaming!

[thebinmann]

No I meant if if was on a per model basis

[Conquistador]

<snip>

I agree that perhaps giants should get the bonus, as they are esier to hit etc. But humans vs gobbos seems much too unfair.
<snip>


To start with I am playing the games from the book, but after when I start to create things I intend to use the bonus points for extra stuff in the back of the book fir all races not just humans.
<snip>

1) Reach is reach and pikes or giants should have advantages, but can demi-humans like Dwarf or Hobbits be issued Pikes or long Spears and how that would play out mechanics wise.  

2) Your second statement seems to contradict your first one but I see goblins as not unlike gnomes in size (getting into the D&D chaos of kobolds/goblins/orcs/Hobgoblins sizes versus human sizes.)  Unless armed with longer reach weapons then size/reach matters.  

Gracias,

Glenn

Who has had some doubts since the OD&D Greyhawk paperback supplement days about reach, weapons speeds, and monster sizes...

[Conquistador]

All the troop stats are based off of 2nd edition AD&D so that's where the 6" Dwarf movement rate comes from.  <snip>

Something I quite never completely understood and found "gamey"  from day one.

Gracias,

Glenn

[thebinmann]

Something I quite never completely understood and found "gamey"  from day one.

Gracias,

Glenn

Did you change it or change rule system?

Thanks

[thebinmann]

From me I am trying to keep it simple on tha table and will do the same as M4, not sure I have 6mm dwarves with spears but if I do use them they will have the advantage. But humans with swords against gobbos with swords wont.

And for me its solo so I guess a little moot.

[robh]

Any pictures of your armies Adam?  I used to have loads of the Irregular 6mm Fantasy and really enjoy seeing 6mm Fantasy battle games.

[thebinmann]

They're coming

Don't suppose you've got any old painted 6mm knocking about? Or any time to paint mine?