Why aint there a Independent fantasy magazine?

[LawnRanger]

Why isn't there a Independent  Fantasy magazine .

Surely there is a opening for one now ?Its such a veritable range now in 6mm,10mm,15mm,and 25mm ect.. and that's just the scale am talking about ,

We have a good 2/3 Independent historical mag Based in England ,I don't think that the usa has any now ? and Europe has a few as well ,

So why aint there a fantasy mag for us none GW people out there ?which I can get at my local newsagents ! 

[Tactalvanic]

Marketability, sales? the actual cost of getting it off the ground and selling is probably the biggest inhibitor of such a new launch.

Then there's this - the internet of things. I came back to this little hobby, bought a couple wargaming magazines - including WD - prior to its latest changes. Then did not bother, don't need to mostly.

Is it even necessary? The quality and quantity of available material on-line - forums like this one, blogs, websites, suppliers etc, renders needing a written copy almost unnecessary.. clutter.

http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=69795.0

Is really interesting and I hope it continues to grow.

Realistically cannot see major support for a printed copy of something in the newsagents, won't be a big seller, and most likely they would prefer to use the shelf space for something else thats sells more.

I am not against the idea of a printed mag, maybe posted to my door as a subscription. But going out to get it from somewhere, sounds risky that, people might see me doing it. 

And personally with all the old Dragon, Dungeon and WD magazines and others full of stuff I already have from the 80's and 90's well.. All of which are very necessary clutter, and no way am I saying otherwise to my better half.

[Conquistador]

Tactalvanic pretty much covers it IMO.

Gracias,

Glenn

I would rather spend money on terrain, paint, and figures... now if I could just buy time...

[maxxon]

Well, there is Ravage now, even in the English language.

Yeah,  I'd like one too. Unfortunately Ravage didn't quite do it for me.

There have been a few attempts over the years, but unfortunately they have all failed.

This is interesting comparing to historicals. There's Wargames Illustrated, there's Miniature Wargames and there's Wargames, Soldiers and Strategy. Even though Battlefront own WI now, it has lots of articles about other games.

All excellent mags and I subscribe to all of them. Some of them even run the occasional SF/F article.

The funny thing is that I think the SF/F market is actually bigger than historicals. So how come historicals manages to support so many independent mags while SF/F has trouble supporting even one?

The one thing I can think about is that the majority of SF/F gamers have very tight focus while historical players are more varied or at the very least more tolerant of other games.

GW players read White Dwarf and are not interested in other games or figure lines.
Warmachine/Hordes players read No Quarter  and are not interested in other games or figure lines.

The other "big name" SF/F games are too small to support their own mags, but a similar monomania is evident: their players typically only care for THE GAME and are not interested in other games or figure lines.

After you deduct these people, the number of generalist SF/F gamers is not enough to support a magazine.

[Vermis]

The funny thing is that I think the SF/F market is actually bigger than historicals. So how come historicals manages to support so many independent mags while SF/F has trouble supporting even one?

The one thing I can think about is that the majority of SF/F gamers have very tight focus while historical players are more varied or at the very least more tolerant of other games.

GW players read White Dwarf and are not interested in other games or figure lines.
Warmachine/Hordes players read No Quarter  and are not interested in other games or figure lines.

The other "big name" SF/F games are too small to support their own mags, but a similar monomania is evident: their players typically only care for THE GAME and are not interested in other games or figure lines.

After you deduct these people, the number of generalist SF/F gamers is not enough to support a magazine.

Very well put!

In my limited experience I'd say historical players are interested in periods, which obviously aren't limited to one set of rules, and they can easily adapt any period scenarios or articles to their rules of preference. The equivalent to sci-fi/fantasy gamers are probably specific settings (the galaxy of the 41st millenium, the Iron Kingdoms, Malifaux etc.), or perhaps sub-genres (grimdark space opera, fantasy steampunk, horror etc.), though I think the former is more likely.
In that case, settings are more closely tied to a ruleset (and models) - being created for eachother, and the latter representing specific creatures, cultures, armies and characters in each specific setting. They're proprietary and official settings for the rules, and proprietary and official rules for the setting. They're not as easily untangled as any given historical period from any given set of rules.

Though it does frustrate me that so many don't bother trying! Besides setting, I think a lot of sci-fi/fantasy gamers are drawn to the big-box, one-stop-shop kind of game. Buy a starter set with the official rules and a starter army or two in it, buy a few more models to taste, and that's all you need. If you get tired of the rules, or (part of) the setting, dump the whole thing and start again from scratch, with a big box from another game. I'd hazard it's an effect of GW's long years of near-monopoly and edition boxes, and it seems to be carried on with Warmachine, Malifaux, Infinity, Deadzone and so on (even horning in on historicals with Bolt Action). It even seems tailored in those latter games to appeal to ex-GW fanatics. If I'm allowed to go even more paranoid for a moment, given other factors (power creep and special rules syndrome), it's like they're swapping 40K for 40K in a steampunk, horror, or 1940K costume...
Hanging around Warseer and now Dakka, it seems only the bare minimum of players think of buying any one game's minis for use in another ruleset or as a proxy, or of using their existing collection with other rules if their game of choice takes a turn for the worse. (especially 40K players) It happens with Kings of War, though that's helped by being a direct competitor/remora of WHFB, and otherwise few are interested.

As well as (or in consequence of) the big-box attitude, I've also seen some of the GW-style monomania - as Maxxon puts it - get transported over to the gamer's new favourite game. In part due to the expense of starting multiple new collections from the ground floor, possibly, especially with the 'fantasy tax'. It's a rationalisation I've seen avoiding new games anyway; though I've run into one Warmachine player recently, who didn't at all like the reasons for my disinterest in it's rules, and let me know it...

So, er, yeah, I agree that's another strong reason why you don't see general sci-fi/fantasy wargaming mags.

[shandy]

I would rather spend money on terrain, paint, and figures... now if I could just buy time...

Funny, my first thought was: But I don't need any more terrain, paint and figures… I've got enough of them to paint. I want a magazine! 
Really, I like magazines, I like reading stuff on paper and I like to see the hand of a good editor.

[warlord frod]

I also like hobby magazines and have seen plenty SciFi/Fantasy Mags come and go. (I reach all the way back to Space Gamer  ) The last one I recall that lasted for several years was Harbinger. I would love to see a similar magazine but I believe with e-publishing we will see fewer magazines all together. While that will make future moves easier  (I recently moved and Magazines are HEAVY) I will miss having them.

On the reason behind the success of the historical gaming magazines I think is the fact that it is something that has real world connections that can be researched. In other words there is a wealth of material to draw from that appeals to the non-gamer as well.

[matakishi]

The basic problem is content. Without content there's no point in buying a magazine and this is where most fail.
What do people write about in fantasy wargames magazines? Compared to historical wargames mags there's not much choice. Both can do news and reviews and both can do painting or making articles. After this cracks begin to show.

An historical battle report has pictures of the action accompanied by background, setting and effects of the outcome as well as OOBs, uniform and organisation details and a plethoria of other possibilities such as extracts from the writings of people who were involved or witnessed it and suggestions on available miniature ranges and rules to use. Lots of interesting stuff to read and inspire the reader to find out more.
A fantasy battle report has pictures of the action. There is no real context and not much to add around the basic subject or scenario description. People look at the pictures but there's nothing to read or stimulate further interest except the thoughts of the players or some average fiction attempting to give a setting.

An historical magazine can have any number of articles about actual battles and ideas on how to game them.
Fantasy magazines might regurgitate (again) a Tolkien battle or two or something from another book or film. There isn't much and there's even less to actually say about them that's new.

Historical magazines can compare rules sets for a period and be comparing apples to apples. Fantasy magazines cannot as no two fantasy rules sets cover the same setting at the same command level so a discussion on relative strengths and weaknesses can't happen.

Interestingly an historical magazine can include the occasional fantasy article but I've yet to see the reverse happen.

tl/dr:
There's nothing to write about fantasy wargames that is worth paying for. This has been shown time and again and is printed large on the flag fluttering above the corpses of the fallen (many of which I have been a contributer to, make of that what you will).

[AndrewBeasley]

I do not see content really being an issue to start with.
Games reviews
Figure reviews
A few generic scenarios
A few specific scenarios
The odd advert or two

A bit of DTP work (sorry any editors/publishers reading) and a good printer and you are ready to go - problem is where?

The odd show or two around the country (with fuel at how much per gallon)
The odd local retail shop (THE big chain of shops will not touch other companies figures let alone mags)
Boyes - OK they have some paints and bits but not magazines
The odd supplier or two in the UK

Unless you can get into Tesco / Sainsbury / Smiths etc you are not going to get the footfall to buy it.

Creation is easy - distribution is the killer

Thats my tuppence worth 

[timlillig]

Historical magazines can compare rules sets for a period and be comparing apples to apples. Fantasy magazines cannot as no two fantasy rules sets cover the same setting at the same command level so a discussion on relative strengths and weaknesses can't happen.

This is an interesting idea and one that I think could work for fantasy.  You could easily fight the same battle with (as an example), Warhammer, Kings of war, Fantasy Warriors, maybe another edition of warhammer, and several others.  I think it would be just as good for comparing various fantasy games.

Ultimately, I would agree that this is not something you could build a fantasy magazine around.  It would make for a good series of blog articles and I think that is where the excellent fantasy gaming content resides.

[matakishi]

I do not see content really being an issue to start with.
Games reviews
Figure reviews
A few generic scenarios
A few specific scenarios
The odd advert or two

A bit of DTP work (sorry any editors/publishers reading) and a good printer and you are ready to go - problem is where?

The problem is that none of that is worth spending money on when better is available for free on the internet.
But, by all means, give it a go, how hard can it be?

[Lovejoy]

Unless you can get into Tesco / Sainsbury / Smiths etc you are not going to get the footfall to buy it.

Creation is easy - distribution is the killer

This is absolutely the key issue - apparently Smiths require you to pay them over £20,000 up front for them to stock your magazines in their shops. That alone pretty much kills the idea. Although you could always Kickstart it....

[Thargor]

The problem is that none of that is worth spending money on when better is available for free on the internet.

And that gentlemen is the answer to your question.  Almost all Fantasy/ Sc Fi game manufacturors have a website with a forum.  They actively encourage their gamers to be active on their fora.  They don't need magazine coverage...they have the worldwide web.  They don't have to pay editors and contributors, publishers and distributors, or retail outlets extortionate fees.  Their fans are more than happy to effuse over the latest product release, write AAR, show pictures of their latest paintjobs and all for free.

Some chums of mine launched The Ancible not that many years ago.  Some of you may have read a few, I read every edition, after all, I knew most of the team that wrote articles for it (and may have written one myself). It was packed with reviews of everything from miniatures to rulebooks, scenarios for RPGs and battles, interviews with leading names in the industry, adverts from all the big names (except GW), they even had a column written by a grumpy old b@5]@£d, on a different topic each issue.  But they couldn't get the readership required to keep a paper copy on the streets.  So, they went online ... and even there they couldn't generate the income needed to break even.  So in the end they admitted defeat and the Ancible folded.  A sad day, but without the big company behind you to soak up some of the losses how can you compete with the internet?

[blackstone]

The problem is that none of that is worth spending money on when better is available for free on the internet.

True. What you're describing sounds like White Dwarf late 70's early 80's. Probably 30 years too late.  Too much high quality content available for free on the net these days. Why do "historical" mags survive? Possibly habit or lack of internet skills. Question is could you get an internet, mobile, ipad, pdf, app exeprience consumer to change habit and by an paper based product? Personally I don't think it's going to happen.

[maxxon]

The problem is that none of that is worth spending money on when better is available for free on the internet.

Call me an old coot if you will, but I don't agree.

Yes, I agree that there are people who think so. How many? Don't know. Are they really right in this? Are they the kind of people who won't pay for anything anyway?

Let's continue with the comparisons.

Historical mags regurgitate Waterloo and D-Day every couple of years, yet no one seems to mind. I even recall two mags publishing a scenario of the same fairly obscure WWI battle within a couple of months of each other.

Historical mags could compare similar rulesets, but they almost never do. Why? Possibly they fear souring relationships with the advertisers? And incidentally, I would love a real article analysing the gameplay differences between say, Warhammer and all the wannabes that bit the dust (Raven, Fantasy Warlord, Fantasy Warriors, Battlesystem etc.) Did they die because they were worse games or simply because GW marketing was better?

I would love articles about gaming in e.g. Conan's world -- what the armies are like, where to get figures, which rules to use.

I can read an article about a game I'm not playing -- Warmachine, Infinity, whatever. Maybe I might even get interested in it. As long as the whole mag isn't the same thing, which is why I have no interest in current White Dwarf, No Quarter or any similar publication.

But enough of that. Let's get onto this Internet thing. I'm old enough to remember Usenet news, and I actually even used them back in the day. I was on the Internet before WWW was even invented. I've run my own website for close to 20 years now (and some of it looks that old too). Don't take this the wrong way, I just feel I need to say this to pre-empt the "lack of net skills" argument looming over the horizon.

The Internet is a wonderful thing. There's loads of information out there. Some of it is true. Some is well written and nicely presented. Some is even both. But do you know what it doesn't do?

No one on the Internet has ever delivered a truly interesting article for my reading enjoyment directly to me. Ever. Not even once in my 20+ years on the net.

Every single time I had to go out looking for it.

The net does not send me a new interesting article on Waterloo. Wargames Illustrated does. And that's the difference I'm really paying for.

While I enjoy sites like this, I enjoy them for the conversation. Not the articles, because there really aren't any. Most of Internet has zero editorial content.

Even when there is editorial content, it's too widely spread and disjointed to effectively follow.

I know Matakishi has a great site. I think I even have the address somewhere in my boomarks. Do I regularly read it? No. The last time I did read it, was probably following a link in a forum post. Most definitely I did not go there just to check what Matakishi has been up to lately. Sorry Matakishi, that's just the way it is.

There's just too many good sites and no good way to know when they have something new up.

(And yes, I know about RSS feeds. I even wrote one for my site. I don't think they really work.)

Even the stuff I write myself, I don't really expect anyone to read.

I read WI, WS&S and MW regularly, because they are delivered to me. I don't read Teahouse because it's not. If I could pay a small sum for Teahouse to be delivered to me, I would. If I had to go to WI site to read it, I probably would not. In fact, I'm getting the digital version of WS&S on the side. I've never read a complete digital issue and lately I haven't even bothered to download them. Too much hassle, I'll rather wait for the mailman to deliver the paper copy.

Internet feeds gaming monomania, because you will basically never see stuff you didn't go out looking for.

If I didn't read the aforementioned magazines, it's very likely I wouldn't play historicals at all. I might even have dropped this hobby completely at some point.

P.S. No, I don't think emailing PDF mags is the answer. It's been tried and found wanting. Full color print magazines are expensive to produce and send around the globe -- we need a completely new delivery mechanism.