Lion Rampant for fantasy - trial game

[Jevenkah]

Looks like a great adaptation for what you played! As others have pointed out, we've had some difficulty with the scales of the battles we want to do. We've worked out Fantasy Warriors to fit so far, but I like the terrain effects you detail here in Lion Rampant.

Is this a d6 system?

Thanks,
Jevenkah

[Momotaro]

It's a fast and fun game that's light on book-keeping, is pretty tactical and has well-differentiated troop types.  The serfs are indeed terrible troops, but fight them in rough terrain and the odds are far more even.  Your armour factor is a wound divider, so changing it has a really big impact.

We played our Skaven Rat Ogres as Smith described, just keeping track of wounds and removing a figure when the appropriate number was reached.  The only thing I'd add is that it may be better having 2, 4 or 6 figures rather than odd numbers, just so it's obvious when the unit reaches half strength.

And yes, a big giant or dragon is effectively a unit in its own right.

I think there's a lot that can be done with unit leaders  as heroes giving special effects, not just a to-hit bonus.

As for magic, we're still undecided about that one.  Archery covers the basic attack spells, but even within the existing rules framework, you could add Mist (= cover), Rust (degrades armour), Entangle (adds rough terrain or stops movement), Bless (Courage or Activation roll bonus), Haste (move faster or ignore terrain), Shield (increases Armour), Berserk (make a unit Ferocious or gives attack bonus and defensive attack penalty), Heal (recover lost troops), Enchant Weapon (useful against certain foes).  You don't need to have dozens of effects, and some of these could be useful hero bonuses too.

The difficulty comes in the application - how many spells do wizards get?  Spell points or fixed hand during a game?  How long do the effects last - a single activation or turn, all game or do you add to book-keeping and have variable or multi-round duration?  I feel I want to get more experience with the base game before I modify it!

LR or God of Battles -ooh, tough call.  Mechanically, both are light games with simple movement rules.  GoB has more going for it in the fantasy army lists, monsters and magic, although those lists are quite idiosyncratic.  But to be honest, I'm enjoying LR for what it is - a light game that can be added to.  So no answer for you!  LR is only £5 on Kindle!

[dijit]

I visited Warwick castle over the weekend, and got bit by War of the Roses. Well oe thing led to another and I've now got Lion Rampant and thought the same thing - a great base for fanasty games. God of Battles is quite popular here, but as has been said it's a little idiosyncratic and the army lists can be a little inflexible. So, LR seems like a god solid new option to try, and am glad to see you guys have already had a go and liked it.

[audrey]

As for characters... they could be figured out in the same way as a single figure representing a whole unit. If deployed with a unit (as the game intends), a hero might be represented by the 'Expert' upgrade for the unit. Generals (as in the leader of the force, though it could certainly be applied for heroes in general) also have the ability to select or roll special skills, and can also go into a scenario with 'boasts' - specific objectives for which they, if successful, would receive additional victory points... and lose if they fail. A bit of tweaking with some of these could easily offer a variety of hero types and a light roleplaying experience.

That is along the same line I was thinking. I have an idea for a LotR fellowship game splitting the fellowship into 4 "units". Gimli & Legolas / Aragorn & Boromir / Gandalf & Frodo /  Sam, Merry & Pippin. Each has 6 wounds except the 3 hobbits have 2 each. I just need to make up the stats for the 4 x 6 point units.

[blacksoilbill]

Thanks for the thoughts - appreciate the detailed answers!

[Argonor]

This is very, very cool, and proves to me that multi-purposing of rules and miniatures is slowly crawling into the mindset of gamers, at least elsewhere than here. 

I am loving the way you tinker with units and how to adapt larger creatures - I think I might have used heavy cavalry stats for ogres/trolls, but anything that works to the player's satisfaction without upsetting balance is a big GO!

I am trying hard to advocate this kind of gaming around here, but it is very hard to make gamers in Denmark work around the 'this mini is meant for that system' thinking (most have grown up on a diet of GW-games, and for many that has meant a very rigid approach to 'what-and-how' to do).

I have been thinking of getting Lion Rampant and Dux Bellorum from Osprey, but am very fond of God of Battles and SAGA, so I'm not sure if I should (but probably will, eventually - I hear too many good things about them to ignore them).

I second Jevenkah's question: Is it it a D6-system, or does it use another random generator?

[dijit]

It's a D6 based system, rolling D6s against a stat to indicate hits, wit he number of hits needed to beat the armour value to get a kill. Command and control/ morale is based on 2D6 and having to roll against a stat in order to move/attack/shoot. With some units able to evade or counter charge as well.

[Argonor]

It's a D6 based system, rolling D6s against a stat to indicate hits, wit he number of hits needed to beat the armour value to get a kill. Command and control/ morale is based on 2D6 and having to roll against a stat in order to move/attack/shoot. With some units able to evade or counter charge as well.

Ok, so a 'friction of war' type game. I do like games where you can't rely on all your troops doing exactly what you want them to do - as long as it doesn't mean endless frustration over not being able to get them to do anything. 

[Momotaro]

Ok, so a 'friction of war' type game. I do like games where you can't rely on all your troops doing exactly what you want them to do - as long as it doesn't mean endless frustration over not being able to get them to do anything. 

It's quite generous.  Each unit type has an activation target number for attacking, moving and shooting (for troops with missile weapons), and each type has definite preferences.

Compulsory attacks are tested first,  and then normal orders.  If a normal order fails, your turn is over, so there's a tactical element to what would otherwise be a straight IGOUGO turn sequence.

[Argonor]

It's quite generous.  Each unit type has an activation target number for attacking, moving and shooting (for troops with missile weapons), and each type has definite preferences.

Compulsory attacks are tested first,  and then normal orders.  If a normal order fails, your turn is over, so there's a tactical element to what would otherwise be a straight IGOUGO turn sequence.

Some similarity to SBH and Warmaster, there, then, both games I like for the way they flow. I normally prefer alternate activation rules, but some games are just too good to ignore, and this gets more and more tempting!  

[monkeylite]

Bumped this thread coz I thought it was quite interesting.

We played a LR game which was played with the rules as written, so no real fantasy element at all, except for the figures.



But it got me thinking and I've made a start on Wizard rules for the game, which I've tried to keep as much to the spirit of the LR rules as possible.

Here's the game, for the record:

http://tewblogger.blogspot.co.uk/2014/11/lion-rampant-aar.html


Wizards in Lion Rampant

Wizard 4 points

Insert a Wizard model into a unit. It is an additional model and doesn’t count towards the unit’s number, or losses, so it should be easily distinguishable. It always moves with that unit, and like a leader becomes the last casualty if it doesn’t suffer a Lucky Blow. If it is in the same unit as a leader then the owner chooses which to take as a casualty.
The Wizard’s only stat is Cast 6. This means it needs to roll a 6 to make successful Spell roll.

Before the game the Wizard can choose three spells to bring to the battle. It can cast any of those spells any number of times during the battle, except some spells are one use only (One Shot). One Shot spells are only used up if cast with a successful Spell roll.

Lucky Blows

A Wizard must check for Lucky Blows similarly to a leader. If a Wizard and leader are in the same unit then the Wizard’s Lucky Blow occurs on a 2-2. If there are three individuals in a unit allocate 3-3, etc.

Spell Rolls

During the Activation phase a wizard can attempt to cast a spell. It does so with a Spell roll. It must declare the exact spell it is attempting and therefore how much Stress this will cause. If it fails the Spell roll the turn ends, in a similar way to failing any other standard activation roll.

Distances from the Wizard in the spell descriptions are measured from the Wizard (not the Wizard’s unit). The unit the Wizard is with counts as a target within range.

A spell cast on a unit will still affect that unit even if it subsequently moves further away from the caster (and the spell’s range).

‘Activation rolls’ in the spell descriptions include all activations and responses like Wild Charge, Evade, Counter Charge, Skirmish,  etc, but not Courage rolls. ‘Courage rolls’ include Rally Battered Units.

Difficult spells have an amount of Stress associated with it. When making a Spell roll, the Wizard’s target is its Cast stat, but it must subtract the Stress of the spell from the total. If the total is its Cast stat or higher then the spell succeeds. If the total is 0 or less then not only does the Cast fail, but the Wizard becomes shocked.

Duration

If the roll succeeds the spell effect occurs as described. Spells usually have an instantaneous effect or the effect lasts for one turn. For effects that last a whole turn, they will immediately dispel as soon as the Wizard becomes shocked, or until the wizard attempts to cast another spell, or the Wizard’s side’s next turn comes to an end. This means that well-timed spells can have twice the effect they might otherwise have, or badly timed ones might have less effect than they could.

Upgrades

Master2 point
Bring one more spell, and is Cast 5

High Master 4 points
Bring two more spells, and is Cast 4

Shock

If a Wizard is shocked it may move with its unit during the turn, but it may not cast a spell. During the Rally Battered Units phase it must attempt to recover from shock. If it passes its test then it is no longer shocked, but it may not activate for the rest of the turn.

Wizard Duel

This works exactly the same as Issuing a Challenge, and can be done before or after a leader challenge. The loser of the challenge is Shocked and is considered activated for the rest of the turn, ie, it cannot attempt to recover from shock until the next turn. Wizards must accept challenges. A shocked Wizard only counts successes on a roll of 6. Wizards leaving a challenge not-Shocked on their turn can still cast a spell during their turn.

Spells

The spells are named vaguely for their effects but any self-respecting fantasy army will have much more evocative names for them.

Braveheart (One Turn): Stress 0
A unit within 6” of the caster can add 2 to Courage rolls.
For every extra unit: Stress +1
For every extra 6”: Stress +1

Hell Fire (Instant): Stress 2
Shoot 12 dice at an enemy unit with 5+, range 6”
For every extra 6” range: Stress +1
Shoot at 4+: Stress +2

Dogs of War (One Turn): Stress 1
A unit within 6” fights with 3 extra dice.
For every extra dice: Stress +1
For every extra 6” range: Stress +1

Ghost Challenge (Instant) (One Shot): Stress 2
A ghostly apparition can challenge the enemy’s leader (if within 12” range). Treat this as a normal challenge except that if the ghost dies there is no effect on the game.
Add an extra combat dice for the ghost: Stress +2
For every extra 6” range: Stress +1

Quicksilver (One Turn): Stress 0
A unit within 6” may add d6” to its move. Once the spell is cast, roll a d6 and add that to the unit’s move stat. That stat will apply until the spell if over.
For every extra d6”: Stress +2
For every extra 6” range: Stress +1

Flight of Fancy (One Turn): Stress 0
A unit within 6” can add 6” to its shooting range (and also add 6” to the -1 for long range restriction).
For every extra 6” shooting range: Stress +1
For every extra spell range 6”: Stress +1
For every extra unit: Stress +1

Call to Order (One Turn): Stress 0
A unit within 6” of the Wizard can add 2 to its Activation rolls
Add an extra 6” range: Stress +1
Add an extra unit: Stress +1

Fog of War (One Turn): Stress 2
All enemy Activation rolls get -1 for the duration of the spell.
Add additional -1: Stress +2

Shadow of Doubt (One Turn): Stress 2
All enemy Courage rolls get -1 for the duration of the spell.
Add additional -1: Stress +2

Ironsides (One Turn): Stress 0
A unit within 6” of the Wizard can add 1 to its Armour for all fights.
For every extra 6” range: Stress +1
For every extra unit: Stress +1

Ironhelms (One Turn): Stress 0
A unit within 6” of the Wizard can add 1 to its Armour for all Shooting against it.
For every extra 6” range: Stress +1
For every extra unit: Stress +1

Solid Ground (One Turn): Stress 1
A unit within 6” of the Wizard is immune to the effects of rough ground.
For every extra 6” range: Stress +1
For every extra unit: Stress +1

Forest of Dread (One Turn): Stress 1
Creates a 6” X 6” patch of Rough Ground and Cover
For each additional contiguous 6”X6” patch: Stress +1

Comments appreciated

[Momotaro]

A brilliant battle report with lovely figures!  Following the photos as a slide show, it was hilarious to watch the goblins approach the bridge, then run away, the unit getting smaller and smaller!

Really like your ideas on magic - they fit well with the "minimum book-keeping" approach of the game, and wizards have choices to make about the strength of their spells.  Shock is a good idea, and perfectly in keeping with the activation and battered mechanics.

Your rules for adding wizards to units would be a good starting point for characters/heroes too.

We've not played enough to say whether the points costings are right or not, or whether the stress on the spells is balanced.  Perhaps the only effect I wonder about is adding armour.  It could be because we played with miserable serf units on the table, but I feel that armour is a big factor and Ironsides might be under-costed.  With units in schiltrons or cover, does Armour 4 or 5 become too accessible?

No answer to that question beyond... play more games!

That's a minor quibble though - brilliant stuff!

[Mr. Peabody]

We will be giving the Wizard ideas a run this coming Sunday, I think.

LR has caught on with members of our club who have been casting about for something fun and satisfying to do with their beautiful but neglected LOTR collections.

I managed to join in one game and had a great time. Best of all, we had troops moving (read manoeuvring  ) all over the table, made impressive shield-walls and charged about with cavalry like a proper wargame. And it was all so intuitive.

Oh, and we used movement trays up until we wanted to form a shield-wall when we moved the figures off the tray and into the appropriate ranking. Worked just fine and looked great.