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Author Topic: Rules, some rules, my Kingdom for some rules!  (Read 5393 times)

Offline Nord

  • Mad Scientist
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    • Nord's Painting Saga
Re: Rules, some rules, my Kingdom for some rules!
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2014, 11:56:34 AM »
Didn't think Kings of War included a stat generator, but then I have only seen the free download.

Offline Zoggin-eck

  • Bookworm
  • Posts: 59
Re: Rules, some rules, my Kingdom for some rules!
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2014, 12:36:00 PM »
For me, Kings of war is pretty limiting in army selection, with a whole lot of "counts as" and ignoring the army composition rules to fit anything but the listed units for each army. For example, most armies don't have the option for a chariot, so you're proxy-ing skeleton/elf horsemen for chariots. Same for practically any monster. Most other games suggested give more freedom when making selecting armies. To make it work for 10/15mm and 40mm bases, you'd need to work out the unit footprint based on the 28mm model bases, then either fill it with more models or halve everything (Actually, the large playing area really needed for KoW might suit 15mm better, with the ranges and unit footprint halved).

(Sorry for the whinge, but I'm always seeing KoW suggested as a suitable game without any thought given to whether it suits the points/scale raised by the person asking, or suggestions given as to how to make it suit).

If I may ask a question: To those recommending Chipco Games Fantasy Rules! 3 - How easy is the rulebook to follow? I've tried reading through the shorter "TCE" edition and found it quite confusing. I know there's a good game in there, but it wasn't worded or set out as clearly as I hoped it would be. It's the only set of rules that I've read multiple times, but still have no idea how half of it works! I have thought about buying the 3rd edition and looking through that whenever I have a query, hoping it's explained there.

Offline eilif

  • Scatterbrained Genius
  • Posts: 2250
    • Chicago Skirmish Wargames
Re: Rules, some rules, my Kingdom for some rules!
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2014, 01:48:59 PM »
Still, I'd also recommend Kings of War.  There's now 12 different army lists available (all for free), so there's really no need for a unit creation mechanic.  Footprints do vary a bit being based on 28mm miniature base sizes, but most units have a size that would scale well to 40x40, and standardizing the unit sizes wouldn't affect gameplay too much.

You are going to be borrowing from different armies for certain units (chariots, etc) but a bit of "counts as" isn't going to negatively affect you when you're dealing with the level of abstraction necessary for a smooth playing 10/15mm game. I borrow many statlines from various races for playing KoW in 28mm and there's so many to choose from that I can always find a statline that adequately represents whatever non-standard unit I want to bring into the game.

What KoW has going for it is:
-A ruleset that is very fast playing.
-Enough detail for some flavor, but abstract enough to be scaled up to the increased number of units you might want to use at smaller scales without bogging down.
-More than enough unit profiles/statlines available to cover most any unit you could want.
-Free!!!
-Very well developed and playtested. Mantic does a very good job of playtesting and seeking player feedback The current rules are the first to be properly published, but they are actually the 3rd generation.

If nothing else, I'd recommend downloading the rules and giving them a shot.  If you don't like them, you're only out some time and paper.  If you like them enough to want a shiny rulebook, I wouldn't buy the current rulebook though. I have it and it's a nice enough book, but the new edition is coming out in 2015.  It will also be available both free and in print.

Offline Mr.Marx

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Re: Rules, some rules, my Kingdom for some rules!
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2014, 04:06:14 PM »
Hey -

Thanks for all the suggestions. After a bit of reading on the various sets I went for 'Mayhem' on account of its robust unit designer and cool dice system.

Cheers all of ya!,

MM.

Offline LawnRanger

  • Librarian
  • Posts: 199
Re: Rules, some rules, my Kingdom for some rules!
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2014, 10:56:12 PM »
Hi Lads

Why are the newer  fantasy rules going for 40mm x 40mm bases for 10/15mm i dont see why ?

Surely a unit of spear has a smaller depth than a unit of pike ? how do you depict loose formations and close order troops IF they have the same base depth.
    The  Frontage i can go with, in fact i think most 10/15mm rule try and keep on the 40mm ratio weather its 4-12 bases of 40mm that make up the unit or just  1 base  (I think its stops us rebasing hundreds of figs each time we get a new set  :) )  which is a great thing  :D, every set of rules i have every played the depth IS always shorter than the frontage and thats a fact of life so why would i need  to put my troops on a 40mm x 40mm base ? whats the reason for it

most rules that have a 40mm front, say you should put 4 figs on the base for close order troops Blades,spear ,pike ect..  . so how many rows do you put on if you have a depth of 40mm as well ?  just 2 or do you fill it with 4 rows ?

I just cant see how this would work in a game ,as you will have a unit of say dwarf spear v goblin hoards taking up the same space on the table ?

 if some of you lads that have played these rules with 40mmx40mm base games, can please help me get my head around it i would love to hear from you   :) ..

happy gaming LR

Offline Nord

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 970
    • Nord's Painting Saga
Re: Rules, some rules, my Kingdom for some rules!
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2014, 10:00:28 AM »
Basing anxiety eh? Most of the newer systems include a caveat - base as you wish - purely to avoid all the issues you have mentioned. Look at it this way, if you have 40mm square to play with, you can fill it up or leave it as sparse as you like. As a fantasy player myself, none of the questions you have raised has ever occurred to me - I guess it's some historical gaming thing?

I know at least one author admitted that squares are used purely for gaming convenience. Saves lots of extra rules. Works for me I have to say, not a massive fan of all those fiddles and faffs for open, closed, ranked, standing on their heads formations.

In a word, abstraction for the sake of simplicity. Okay, that's a few words.  ;)

Offline Vermis

  • Scatterbrained Genius
  • Posts: 2433
    • Mini Sculpture
Re: Rules, some rules, my Kingdom for some rules!
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2014, 07:34:34 PM »
Legions of Battle by Crusader Miniatures sounds like a good fit.

I bought the LoB download recently, and it looks like a good set for the reasons you mentioned. Problem is I'd already bought Mayhem, with largely the same advantages and some very interesting mechanisms to boot. :) Still, should be few problems trying it out now and then with the same minis.

For me, Kings of war is pretty limiting in army selection, with a whole lot of "counts as" and ignoring the army composition rules to fit anything but the listed units for each army...
(Sorry for the whinge, but I'm always seeing KoW suggested as a suitable game without any thought given to whether it suits the points/scale raised by the person asking, or suggestions given as to how to make it suit).

Aye... same thing as with LoB for me, really. I think KoW is a decent set and for a while I had plans to build and base armies for it, but there were a few things that gave me pause, and helped me hop onto Mayhem. Just little things like their 'not-GW-high-elves-honest' list missing a proxy for Illyrian reavers; the GW-style role of heroes (and generals to a degree) as close combat monsters rather than the other CC, command & control; the 125x100mm exception for orcs, from the usual 100x80mm regiment footprint, just 'cos GW orcs are based on 25mm bases. (I do appreciate Mantic's original purview of compatible alternatives to GW, but for some reason that just started rubbing me up the wrong way. Maybe it had something to do with a guy upbraiding me for calling Mantic's hulking, bucket jawed, bright-green orcs 'GW-style', but I digress.)
And then there was Jake Thornton's criticism of 'fastest cav wins', regarding the ability of cavalry to premeasure charges and sweep all before them. I hear the kickstarted 2nd ed fixes that, and I'll check it out, but it'll still be 'backup rules' in my mind.

Hi Lads

Why are the newer  fantasy rules going for 40mm x 40mm bases for 10/15mm i dont see why ?

Surely a unit of spear has a smaller depth than a unit of pike ? how do you depict loose formations and close order troops IF they have the same base depth.

Stick more minis on close order bases than loose. ;)

Seriously though. What Nord said. I don't think it's a historical thing, though: one of my first experiences with historical gaming was WAB's Shieldwall, complete with photos of 50x50mm bases with 2-3 skirmishers on them. (and that was for clunky ol' single-based casualty-removal Warhammer...) And although I'd maybe think twice about it myself, I've seen a few unit bases with a thin strip of troops in the centre or at the back of the base. What appeals to me more is the diorama style of base, made popular with the likes of Impetus, where all bases are the same and number of minis on each is whatever you like. :)

Although...

Quote
I just cant see how this would work in a game ,as you will have a unit of say dwarf spear v goblin hoards taking up the same space on the table ?

I get that you probably mean the perception or image of a few elite dwarfs vs. a horde of goblins. In which case, add more goblin squares! But there are rules answers too. I'd have to go look up LoB again, but Mayhem has rules for hordes that are usually - like WFB and KoW - twice as big as regular units: 80x40mm. ('Usually' as in, they don't have to be, but as we might agree: why not? And then there's great hordes. ;) ) Skirmishers in the Stronghold expansion are on quarter-size bases - 20x20mm for 10mm scale, for example.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 08:02:42 PM by Vermis »

Offline LawnRanger

  • Librarian
  • Posts: 199
Re: Rules, some rules, my Kingdom for some rules!
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2014, 11:06:06 PM »
veris
 I think you are missing the point . It aint about adding more figs to a base its about HOW much room a unit takes up on the battlefield that's my point  :)
you said
Impetus, where all bases are the same and number of minis on each is whatever you like. Smiley

But the depth is smaller than the frontage 80mm x 40mm  that's what I am saying its very unusual that you get square bases in 15mm gaming they just don't look right and feel wrong in my eye.

When you match up a pike block and a spear unit on the table I like to see the depth of all them pikes 4 -6 figs deep against the 2 ranks of spear with wider flanks  :D 
 wish I could take some pics to show you but I just don't know how to do it  . :(

hope you get what I am trying to say ,at the end of the day its Horses for Courses   :)

happy gaming LR




.

Offline Nord

  • Mad Scientist
  • Posts: 970
    • Nord's Painting Saga
Re: Rules, some rules, my Kingdom for some rules!
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2014, 11:22:41 PM »
Vermis, the difference between KOW and LOB is that LOB includes a unit stat builder. You can design any unit, any monster, any character, etc . I'm pretty sure KOW does not do that. Anyway, OP has found his nirvana, this is all moot now.

Offline Vermis

  • Scatterbrained Genius
  • Posts: 2433
    • Mini Sculpture
Re: Rules, some rules, my Kingdom for some rules!
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2014, 12:22:31 AM »
When you match up a pike block and a spear unit on the table I like to see the depth of all them pikes 4 -6 figs deep against the 2 ranks of spear with wider flanks  :D 
 wish I could take some pics to show you but I just don't know how to do it  . :(

Don't worry, I get it. :) Finally digging out my Legions of Battle pdf (and not having read Mighty Armies), I think that might suit you better. Troops are organised into square stands, but units are made up of 4-6 stands and can be reformed between line (one stand deep) and column (two stands deep). With your pike vs. spear example: unfortunately, like most fantasy games LoB doesn't distinguish between the two (seriously, it has separate entries for both, with exactly the same text in each o_o ) but has an add-on rule that gives bonuses to pike/spears in column. Should be easy to houserule that spears can't take it...

Vermis, the difference between KOW and LOB is that LOB includes a unit stat builder. You can design any unit, any monster, any character, etc . I'm pretty sure KOW does not do that. Anyway, OP has found his nirvana, this is all moot now.

I meant that LoB was like KoW, in that for me, they're interesting and worthy rules that were just edged out in my affections by something else. ;) Sorry for the mix-up!

And yeah, but I have a terrible obsession to catalogue and compare. ;D

 

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