Smaug

[matthais-mouse]

A feathered dragon, now this could well be interesting
Im going to do some research I think and see what I can come up with. May even start a thread for it if not one already?

[Vermis]

Y'know what, Chris: good question.

A feathered dragon, now this could well be interesting
Im going to do some research I think...

Look again at Bob's link and one of the links in it.

[matthais-mouse]

Y'know what, Chris: good question.

Look again at Bob's link and one of the links in it.

See this is the problem with reading on a mobile device, links dont load as well so easily missed....
I shall do research and discuss on that board

[Commander Vyper]

Verm1s: haha, yes, I can certainly get behind that mentality!  Fantasy creatures are always more interesting when they take their inspiration from the staggering diversity of real organisms.

Zoology with Marine Zoo Graduate here. You should see the anatomical mess you'd have if an angel could fly let alone a dragon. I'm all for cryptozoological debate and yes rectilinear motion and belly scales is a perfectly appropriate comment. Just think we might have a bit too much cheese with our respective beards if you know what i mean. .

Wyrm shmyrm!

[Whitwort Stormbringer]

Zoology with Marine Zoo Graduate here. You should see the anatomical mess you'd have if an angel could fly let alone a dragon.  I'm all for cryptozoological debate and yes rectilinear motion and belly scales is a perfectly appropriate comment.  Just think we might have a bit too much cheese with our respective beards if you know what i mean. .

Wyrm shmyrm!

Haha, now thats a phrase I'd never heard before!

But that's more or less what I was getting after - if we're going to pick apart a dragon's anatomy, I would think we'd take issue with things like flight first, even though I agree that the belly scales are off.

In the end, since I imagine by and large the folks designing fantasy creatures probably aren't anatomists or evolutionary biologists, I just don't worry too much about it.  It's great when people get things right, but I'm not too worried about it when they don't. They're imaginary creatures in an imaginary world, after all.

On a sidenote - I'm always surprised at how many of us have a background in biology!

[Vermis]

In the end, since I imagine by and large the folks designing fantasy creatures probably aren't anatomists or evolutionary biologists, I just don't worry too much about it.  It's great when people get things right, but I'm not too worried about it when they don't.

I do though, even though it doesn't keep me up at night. Thing is I see it in other areas beyond fantasy miniatures, especially on art sites like Conceptart.org: a lot of worthy focus on getting the relevant human anatomy right, and not so much on any organism. (Horses might come close. Sometimes.)

At the same time, and although it may look otherwise right now, I'm not obsessing about making anyone who wants to doodle a dragon go on an extensive comparative anatomy course, either. (fun fact: my own degree course had pitifully little anatomy) Even for anyone beginning to get serious, and with an eye to making a bit of dosh; but there are some books, sites and resources out there, alongside the human anatomy books. I don't think it's that difficult to get an introduction to the ideas that quadruped shoulders are slightly different and that digitigrade legs don't have 'backward knees'. 

And lastly, when I see dragon models out there that make my eyes water, I have trouble shaking it off and going with it. If I have to buy into something, a dragon model or the franchise it belongs to, I have to like it. It might be childish but that's still a large part of what initially put me off Mantic's range, for instance. When I see things like that, the matter of the number of Smaug's limbs tends to fizzle away to nothingness, in my mind.

Bah. I told myself some time ago that I'd better go practise what I preach. So like Matthias, I think I'll leave this topic and go do something about it. Watch this space.

[Connectamabob]

It might be childish but that's still a large part of what initially put me off Mantic's range, for instance.

Wow. That really is just straight up mounted Trogdors, isn't it?

I too like dragons that play with the formula and try to see how exotic they can get while still being dragons*. I also feel like "designers aren't anatomists" isn't so much a thing these days. Prolly true if you go back a decade or few, but these days as Vermis points out it's all the rage for concept artists to be up on their anatomy.

*Even the fugly ones, like the "Eborsisk" from Willow.

[Tactalvanic]

Yeah... Mantic sent me one of those in an order, by mistake, when I asked for the correct item, they kindly sent it out, no additional charge, but oddly they did not want the "wrong thing" back, its buried in the lead pile somewhere deep. Until I do a viking bot or something to stick up the backend of it.

Give it 10 or twenty years for the idea to get to the front of the queue.

Still, main problem I see with the dragon depictions we see are historical and not really down to anatomy studies, or rather the wrong ones.

Historical pictures and old prints, tend to be looked at and seen as - thats  how dragons look, annd.. so we go on. Anatomy be damned - if the wood-cuts etc mostly show snake style scales, no shoulders etc - ok we can do that..

So although Trogdors is doing it, he is only really continuing the same old style, and continuing the same old problem.. damn anatomy, here be monsters - rarrrghgh.

Lets not forget - legends of cyclops were supposedly based on the discovery of Mammoth skulls, and the mistaken assumption the huge hole for the nasal cavity was an eye socket - anatomy be damned again.

Lets face it if we can do something wrong often enough it becomes the norm.

I think really its best just to go with:

Its a worm!
No its a giant snake !
Its got wings - its  a winged serpent!
Its got legs on it - tis a wyvern!
More legs - tis a dragon!
Stick some feathers on.. - oh, its just a chicken. With extra drummers..Lunch anyone?
 

[Whitwort Stormbringer]

Even for anyone beginning to get serious, and with an eye to making a bit of dosh; but there are some books, sites and resources out there, alongside the human anatomy books. I don't think it's that difficult to get an introduction to the ideas that quadruped shoulders are slightly different and that digitigrade legs don't have 'backward knees'. 

Agreed!

The "backwards knees" is one that drives me up a wall (OK, that's putting it strongly, but it's a misunderstanding that I always feel compelled to correct when I hear someone mention it).  I think it's great that there are resources out there for artists looking to improve their non-human anatomy, I just think it's almost inevitable that someone without specialization isn't going to make a mistake somewhere.  I get the impression that most of the focus is on skeletal structure and musculature, and anything on top of that is seen as ornamentation.

And lastly, when I see dragon models out there that make my eyes water, I have trouble shaking it off and going with it. If I have to buy into something, a dragon model or the franchise it belongs to, I have to like it. It might be childish but that's still a large part of what initially put me off Mantic's range, for instance.

I don't think that's unreasonable or childish at all, why buy a luxury item that you don't like?  Those Mantic dragons are abysmal!  Mounted Trogdors indeed 

Bah. I told myself some time ago that I'd better go practise what I preach. So like Matthias, I think I'll leave this topic and go do something about it. Watch this space.

I look forward to it!

[Andrew May]

Re Smaug, it's a fantastic sculpt of the DRAGON IN THE FILM, Games Workshop/Michael Perry can't be blamed for sculpting a faithful version of a licenced product! 

Re Dragons and verisimilitude, I've always thought the the ventral scales were some kind of convergent evolution if you like. Whereas in snakes they are for aiding locomotion, in dragons they are much needed armour!

Take the Red Dragon that I sculpted for OW


Spend half your life rearing up like that and you'll end up with a knight's lance in you otherwise soft under belly!
(Although it's based on classic artwork, obv)

[Tactalvanic]

Dragons - evolution  by St. George. 

But yes its a beautifully done representation of the movie dragon version in question, and a well done for Games Workshop/Michael Perry.

But it's a collector's piece, as in movie memorabilia more than a gamers piece as has been mentioned by others, and price accordingly and within the restrictions of the license running out soon(ish) so GW want as much money up front as possible. Hopefully a number of painters (maybe here?) will get some nice commissions to actually add some colour to them from the collectors finding themselves with a box of resin bits..

The restriction of the number available before xmas, I suspect has more to do with how fast they can cast them, and would not be surprised if that guy is on xmas holiday.. Its what I would do to 

[maxxon]

Hmmm... the video was definitely missing "For a limited time only 299.99".

Well, we can't really blame GW for the design.

But even with fantasy creatures a little something is needed to maintain the suspension of disbelief. My personal pet peeve is the inclination to put mammaries on female models, even when they are not mammals. In fantasyland, even sparrows have boobs it seems...

[Tactalvanic]

Ah thats not fantasy sparrows, those are the fantasy great tits your thinking of..

And lets not get to the blue footed boobies.

[Connectamabob]

My personal pet peeve is the inclination to put mammaries on female models, even when they are not mammals.

Yarg. That's one that gets me too. Latter day Argonians ('cause Bethesda apparently couldn't be bothered to make just one extra body mesh... in two consecutive games), and "predettes" ahoy. The Predator fandom in general seems particularly inclined to latch onto particularly kack ideas for some reason.