*
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
April 28, 2024, 07:24:44 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Donate

We Appreciate Your Support

Recent

Author Topic: Terrain workshop @ Casa del Hammers Oct 9-10-11  (Read 21933 times)

Offline Hammers

  • Amateur papiermachiéer
  • Moderator
  • Elder God
  • *
  • Posts: 16093
  • Workbench and Pulp Moderator
Terrain workshop @ Casa del Hammers Oct 9-10-11
« on: September 18, 2008, 01:43:12 PM »
God willing and the creek don't rise I shall embark on a terrain building spree on said dates. I have been preparing for some time to make a modular NW Frontier table.

I am planning on making it out of 60 by 60cm squares of extruded styrofoam (the local brand is not as much Pink as Peach) with cardboard bottoms and fit them into two 120 by 120cm frames, making a grand total gaming table of 120 by 240 cm. I have five sheets of this precious material and plenty of scrap bits and even more of that horrid white crumbly stuff.

Since I am a disorganized guy: Is anyone aware of some cool CADish software with which you can plan a game board an match end-of-roads and river mouths between sections? ;)

The board should look like some arid hill landscape with shrubs, a few irrigated fields, a river, cliffs. It would be cool but perhaps not practical to make some terraced rice fields on a hill side. My goal is to find a balance between pretty and utilitarian.



I have paste, glue (all sorts), sand and pebbles, bark rock, dry grass flock, tall grass, shrubbery, various conifers...you want it, I got it, all aplenty. It'd be nice to put a couple of tamarind trees around the fort.

For constructions I have already cut most of the pieces after tech drawings of this wonderful building...



...found at Terrain Thralls.

..which I hope to make appear as a mud brick fort. I also want to do a few mud brick houses and walls which can be placed on terraces below the fort.



I also have a material for a Indiana Jonesish rope bridge which I want to me out of brass wire cord  to make it more durable



Well, maybe I will make it wider and shorter an with pillar supports...more like this...



That one's actually from Pakistan. IJ Temple of Doom was filmed in Sri Lanka, wans't it?

I have already invited the LAC(Sweden) posse to take part in this but then, after doing some risk assessment, I said to myself "Hey, lets appear fucking GRAND here and invite everyone!". So if any LAFer is passing by Stockholm the days mentioned on your way up to the reindeer fall slaughther in Kiruna or whatever, drop me a line and swing by, why don't ya! Beer and pretzels are on me!
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 01:49:13 PM by hammershield »

Offline Operator5

  • Scatterbrained Genius
  • Posts: 3344
  • The Silent Sentinel
    • Rattrap Productions LLC
Re: Terrain workshop @ Casa del Hammers Oct 9-10-11
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2008, 02:09:03 PM »
One day I will visit the land of my ancestors (I'm a quarter Swede don't ya know) but alas, it shall not be during the dates you are working. :)

I can't wait to see the set-up. It's an ambitious plan so it should be cool to see the final.
Richard A. Johnson
On Facebook: Rattrap on Facebook

Offline Hammers

  • Amateur papiermachiéer
  • Moderator
  • Elder God
  • *
  • Posts: 16093
  • Workbench and Pulp Moderator
Re: Terrain workshop @ Casa del Hammers Oct 9-10-11
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2008, 02:15:18 PM »
One day I will visit the land of my ancestors (I'm a quarter Swede don't ya know)

Capital! I shall ask Alex to add you to the LAC (Sweden) internal board! Welcome over whenever!

Offline Hammers

  • Amateur papiermachiéer
  • Moderator
  • Elder God
  • *
  • Posts: 16093
  • Workbench and Pulp Moderator
Re: Terrain workshop @ Casa del Hammers Oct 9-10-11
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2008, 10:15:05 AM »
Taking a page from the excellent tutorial at the occasional online  gaming magazine Quindia Studios I have now started to plan the gaming board. Unlike in the tutorial, which uses rectangular modules I will go with square ones. The first has the advantage of not having so many seams which gives a more homogeneous look. My optionn gives me more flexibility. I also saw the Perry brothers showcase their square module layout and the impression stuck.

This is a rough sketch of the basic eight 60 by 60cm modules fit together into a single configuration:



The modules are:
* three pathless scrubland
* two stream, one with a crossing
* one with a crossroad
* one with a three road junction
* one with a straight road

There are a couple of things which demands some thinking:

- First, in modular terrain you need to figure out a system so that end of roads, rivers and other such features matches up with the most flexibility across modules. I think I will handle this by using a few common principles.

- A road should always be 10 cm wide at a an edge of a module.

- An end-of-road must always have its be a 1/6th's width from a module corner. With modules 60 by 60cm this means 10 cm from the corner and 10 cm wide from there.

-There may be a maximum of two roads/paths ending at the same module edge. Both must be 10 cm from either corner.

(I could, in the future, expand this to allow for roads to end at the middle of a module, meaning 25cm from corner and only allow for one road at each such edge).

-To get a bit more flexibility out of my modules I will probably create some end-of roads on roadless modules, meaning at these edges there will be roads petering out into nothingness. Ruins, houses or fenced in fields or pastures can be placed there to make things look more natural

-Streams are always 20cm wide at the module edge.

-A stream (or lake outlet) must always start 10cm from a module corner.

I have not quite decided what to do about inclines. Should I build them into certain modules or should I make them as separate hills and cliff faces to place on the modules? I am bending towards building them into the terrain because I am sure I can make them look nicer that way.

Constructions like forts, houses bridges e.t.c. will obviously be loose objects.

Any comments on these ideas are more than welcome. I am sure there are many of you who are more experienced than thinking about these matters.

« Last Edit: September 19, 2008, 02:50:04 PM by hammershield »

Offline Admiral Benbow

  • The Queen's Own Gizmologist
  • Scatterbrained Genius
  • Posts: 2743
  • "Creativity is a drug I cannot live without."
    • The Benbow Workshop
Re: Terrain workshop @ Casa del Hammers Oct 9-10-11
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2008, 01:07:46 PM »
Hammers, I would strongly suggest not to use cardboard under the styrofoam! It WILL warp. I'd use MDF instead. I'm planning to have my own set of modular terrain perhaps next year, and I will do it as rigid as possible: MDF plus a wooden frame at the sides and foam inside the frame.

Offline Hammers

  • Amateur papiermachiéer
  • Moderator
  • Elder God
  • *
  • Posts: 16093
  • Workbench and Pulp Moderator
Re: Terrain workshop @ Casa del Hammers Oct 9-10-11
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2008, 01:54:15 PM »
Yes, I've come to that conclusion to, but for other reasons. I will be using 5cm  Peach Foam; I doubt card will warp that. I however will need to cut down to the base board for the river modules and therefore they need to be MDF.

I think I will, at least initially, be satisfied with stick-on veneer for the edges.

Offline Captain Blood

  • Global Moderator
  • Elder God
  • Posts: 19320
Re: Terrain workshop @ Casa del Hammers Oct 9-10-11
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2008, 02:17:06 PM »
Hang Teutonic efficiency! This is Nordic efficiency at its best.  ;)

Can't wait to see it take shape. You're going to make my little NW Frontier set-up look very pedestrian (damn you!  :D)

I went for more of less flat boards with hills and other features added on top. These make for optimum flexibility, and very easy flat-pack storage. But they are no substitute for 'deep' styrofoam boards in which gradients, roads, rivers and features can be much more realistically and artistically sculpted.

The down side of course, is that you are stuck with what you've got (although with cunning planning like yours, yes, you can build in quite a few options depending on which order you lay the boards out in). The other drawback is that all that depth of foam takes up a lot more storage space...

But I do wonder from time to time what I might be able to achieve were I to take the plunge into deep styrofoam...  lol

Good luck with it!

Offline Rhoderic

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1830
  • I disapprove!
Re: Terrain workshop @ Casa del Hammers Oct 9-10-11
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2008, 07:24:35 PM »
Hammers is the only Swede possessing Nordic Efficiency that I know of. I've begun to suspect there is no such thing as "Nordic Efficiency" and he is in fact a German spy. I've reported him to the Swedish "Säpo" (they're like the NSA on valium... :` ).
"When to keep awake against the camel's swaying or the junk's rocking, you start summoning up your memories one by one, your wolf will have become another wolf, your sister a different sister, your battle other battles, on your return from Euphemia, the city where memory is traded." - Italo Calvino

Offline Hammers

  • Amateur papiermachiéer
  • Moderator
  • Elder God
  • *
  • Posts: 16093
  • Workbench and Pulp Moderator
Re: Terrain workshop @ Casa del Hammers Oct 9-10-11
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2008, 12:20:21 PM »
The last two days I've done some applied basic research on which surface cover to use for my modular gaming table. As you can read in previous posts I aim to get the visual effect of arid mountainous terrain of scree, gravel, rocks and little vegetation.

To test the adhesiveness, fill, durability and look of various alternatives I took a 20*30cm piece of pink foam and covered it with the following materials:



Materials used:




From left to right:
- 'Husfix', a houshold light concrete used for filling holes in wood and masonry but also as grout for floor tiles. I use it extensively in hobby projects. You mix it 4-1 with water.
-  'Celluclay', probably familiar to some of you, esp. in America. It is a shredded paper/wallpaper glue compound which you mix with water, ergo papier maché. It is very popular among diorama and model train enthusiasts and also sculpters aged 5-10 making a Christmas present t grandma.


Celluclay, why use mud when you can use paper?



- Yunik Light spackle, medium course, this is a local brand of wall spackle. I think the generic term sand spackle is sometimes used. I had some semi-dried up remains from a DIY project. It comes ready in a bucket. Convenient, that.
- Flexi Paste from Woodland Scenics. Also familiar, I suppose, to the model train nerds among you. It is sold in a pot.
- Casco trälim, the Swedish equivalent of the good ol' Elmers Glue, white glue, carpenter glue...
- Cascospac, a quick spackle used for, well spackling something quickly. Probably got a fair bit of acrylic in it. Sold in tubes.

Some of you may reflect on that I am not trying plaster-of-paris, hydrocal and the like. Well, I hate dealing with that stuff and won't use it, no sir! I also rejected acrylic textured artist paste, the kind with ground pummice, since it is rather expensive. Textured paint went the same way as it has no fill.

Again: the qualities I was primarily looking for are adhesiveness, filling properties, durability and sex appeal...well, maybe not, but it should at least look good.

The result (sorry for the over large image but there are a couple of details I want to point out) :



The vertical bands are from left to right:
light wall spackle, rapid spackle, flexi paste, 'Husfix' light concrete, Celluclay and below a strip of white glue (I added the plain glue strip to the experiment as an afterthought). I smeared them on fairly thick, something like 3-5mm.

As you can see I tested adhesiveness not only for how the material stuck to the pink foam but also how well grit stuck to it without using glue. The pink foam was not prepped in any way.

The verdict

Medium Coarse Wall Spackle


When I stirred the contents of the buckets it was so dry I had to add some water. And of course I add to much and it turned into the consistency of semi-runny gruel. I nevertheless smeared a stripe of it onto the foam and it did not run all over the place. I was rather happy with the result. It dried hard but not brittle. It sticks well to the pink foam and the grit sunk in just as well into the spackle and stays there. Since it was wetter than it should be it developed a rather smooth surface. It didn't shrink noticeably even though I had added water. Encouraged as I am by the result I may try this again with a steaming fresh pot of course textured wall spackle. It is fairly cheap to, costing something like 15 Euros for the pot in the picture which I think should last for the two square meters I am about to use it for

Rapid spackle

This was rubbish. Boo! As you may be able to see it shrunk and cracked event though this particular stripe was not smeared on as thick as the others. As you can see the grit has brushed off all to easily. It also feels rather brittle when you poke at it. So this is a reject. All things have their uses, however. That cracking effect can be used to mimic dried mud plains or river beds if applied the right way. Not so sure about durability though.

Flex Paste

Rather nice. Stuck nicely to the foam and the grit sits there like nobody's business. It dries quick, without shrinkage and develops a rather smooth surface, which is so-so; I wouldn't mind a bit of texture. A rather nice feature, as indicated by its names, is that it has slightly flexible character, which probably means it wont tear and crack as easily. It certainly feels like it. Doing some product research right now I just confirmed a hunch: like many Woodland Scenic products it is expensive. Something like $20 for 16 ounce jar. That and the lack of texture pretty much rules this one out.

Husfix

I am rather partial to this material but I'll try to quench my enthusiasm here. It dried to a hard, rigid surface over night and stuck nicely to the foam. The grit was slightly pushed into the rather dense paste and stayed there acceptably well. I would probably depend on a layer of paint or watered down white glue to keep it in place completely. Husfix mixes nicely in a plastic bowl but I would recommend anyone to use a face mask while doing so. It is dusty and irritates when inhaled. I would not recommend it for recreational snorting. I very muck like its sandy texture especially in combination with grit. The had surface seems very durable but probably would crack if someone leaned a sharp elbow on it. This is definitely an option even though it is slightly more expensive (12 euros for the box in the picture, 22 Euro for a large box) than wall spackle and gives similar results.

Celluclay

Well, I botched this one a bit. 48 hrs later and it is still not dry. I may have used to much water. I mixed the stuff to the consistency of oatmeal as per some instructions; some sources say it should be mixed to the cosistency of clay (is the name Celluclay any guidance here?) As per recommendation from a guide by the veteran diorama maker Shepard Paine I added a large dollop of white glue to the mix as wetter Cellyclay shrinks and may curl up at the edges when it dries. To early to say. Anyway, the glue did its magic on the grit which sits firm embedded in the mush. The texture is lovely and looks much like packed dirt. I know from earlier experience that the surface generally dries tough and has a slight bounce to it. This fact and that it can be pigmented with dry artist pigments makes me hope that it would make for a very durable gaming surface ready for wear and tear. One drawback may be that it takes long to dry. I will experiment some more with the mix. I may also use the drying chamber in the laundry room to speed up the process. Another drawback is that Celluclay is not readily available in Sweden (I am still living of my stash from the US). It is however cheap and lasts long: a 5 lbs bale costs something like $20 so I might just order it from abroad.

Finally:

White Glue

I tested this because I've had less than good experience with using white glue when sticking bits of pink foam together. It seems like WG doesn't like non-breathing materials or environments.
In short: it sticks very well on top of pink foam, it fastens the grit with a superior, flexible bond, it has no texture nor fill, the grit won't 'sink in'. Enough said.

Conclusion

Well, it seems like I am going forward with wall spackle or Celluclay. If i can find a source and if further experiments turn out well I am inclined to think it will be the latter.

That's it for now. I would appreciate your comments.

Offline Argonor

  • Elder God
  • Posts: 11336
  • Attic Attack: Mead and Dice!
    • Argonor's Wargames
Re: Terrain workshop @ Casa del Hammers Oct 9-10-11
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2008, 12:31:35 PM »
I've reported him to the Swedish "Säpo" (they're like the NSA on valium... :` ).

I've read Guillou, too  lol
Ask at the LAF, and answer shall thy be given!


Cultist #84

Offline marko.oja

  • Scientist
  • Posts: 459
    • My Photobucket
Re: Terrain workshop @ Casa del Hammers Oct 9-10-11
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2008, 06:36:19 PM »
I's nice to see someone using products that you can actually find for once!  lol

Marko
Currently painting: Black Hat Three Musketeers range.

Offline Rhoderic

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1830
  • I disapprove!
Re: Terrain workshop @ Casa del Hammers Oct 9-10-11
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2008, 07:33:32 PM »
Funny, Cascospack is the spackle I normally use and I've never seen it crack like that. I use the stuff that comes in a green tube ("Cascospack LF" as opposed to the "Cascospack S" you're using), so maybe that explains it.

Offline Col.Stone

  • Mastermind
  • Posts: 1864
    • The compound
Re: Terrain workshop @ Casa del Hammers Oct 9-10-11
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2008, 07:45:47 PM »
Since i'm going to shamelessly steal* Hammershields ideas for my own afghani hillfort threads like this are very welcome, it will save me lots of time and testing  ;)

*I live in the city of thieves after all

Offline Hammers

  • Amateur papiermachiéer
  • Moderator
  • Elder God
  • *
  • Posts: 16093
  • Workbench and Pulp Moderator
Re: Terrain workshop @ Casa del Hammers Oct 9-10-11
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2008, 09:38:57 AM »
Funny, Cascospack is the spackle I normally use and I've never seen it crack like that. I use the stuff that comes in a green tube ("Cascospack LF" as opposed to the "Cascospack S" you're using), so maybe that explains it.

I bet it explains it. I think Cascospack S is meant to be applied in thin layers almost like a primer.

Offline Argonor

  • Elder God
  • Posts: 11336
  • Attic Attack: Mead and Dice!
    • Argonor's Wargames
Re: Terrain workshop @ Casa del Hammers Oct 9-10-11
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2008, 09:53:32 AM »
Funny, Cascospack is the spackle I normally use and I've never seen it crack like that. I use the stuff that comes in a green tube ("Cascospack LF" as opposed to the "Cascospack S" you're using), so maybe that explains it.

I bet it explains it. I think Cascospack S is meant to be applied in thin layers almost like a primer.

But the cracking-up effect you get would be very nice for walls... like the clay used for the SCW village elsewhere...

 

Related Topics

  Subject / Started by Replies Last post
64 Replies
21107 Views
Last post October 16, 2008, 04:32:41 PM
by Westfalia Chris
6 Replies
3764 Views
Last post March 14, 2010, 03:20:56 AM
by commissarmoody
27 Replies
7168 Views
Last post April 25, 2011, 08:04:49 AM
by Yankeepedlar01
24 Replies
4798 Views
Last post September 24, 2014, 08:57:30 AM
by chromedog
1 Replies
687 Views
Last post March 06, 2023, 05:25:10 PM
by MaleGriffin