Got some Imperial Roman Camel Riders - Where do I go from here?

[nathan]

So a while back I was given some of Warlord's Imperial Roman Camel Riders:



I've been wanting to do ancients in metal in 28mm for a while and remembered that I have these.  So they're going to be a jumping off point.

The thing is I don't know much about the type of places or enemies an Imperial Roman army with camels might be or face.

As much as plastic is all the rage these days, I want this project to be all metal as well.  I do pretty much every other form of gaming in plastic and have my fill of it there.  What other metal ranges would work alongside and against these camel riders?

As for rules, I'll probably approach this the same way I do all my other projects-- multiple rules sets for multiple scopes of battle.  Song of Blades & Heroes for skirmishes as the dromedarii patrol or something.  Then something Saga like in terms of model count and finally a lower figure count battle game.  I have Impetus and Sword & Spear for that.

Thoughts?

 

[georgec]

They are wonderfully 'generic' Roman figures, I think you could really get away with them from 1-5 th centuries AD.  Location? Well, skirmishing, policing , scouting and raiding anywhere with a desert edge boundary, from Morroco across North Africa, into Egypt, through the Levant and up to The Taurus mountains.

 That would give your Moors/Numidians/Berber tribes in the west, Nubian/Kushite in Sudan, the early, 'petty' Hellenistic successor kingdoms in the Levant/Judea, Jewish rebels (Peoples' Front of Judea? Spliters!), the Arabic 'oasis' kingdoms up to and including Palmyria and the Mesopotamian war zone with Parthian and the Sassanids.  Along the Judean/  Syrian border around the rise of the Sassanids might be particularly rich, with Parthians, Sassanids, strong Arabs oasis statelets, and truculent rebels against all of them.  Aventine and A&A do some nice ranges about this period, with 'Eastern' Romans useful for a lot of the participants

[Emir of Askaristan]

The metal ranges you might want to take a look at are

Gripping Beast - Desert Frontier and Sassanids
A & A Miniatures  - Palmyrans, Sassanids and Parthians
Aventine - Parthian/Early Sassanids

Some early Arab/Bedouin and Hellenistic psiloi (as Jewish bandits and insurgents) types might also be useful. Given your camel riders seem fairly well swathed in turbans and scarves you might be able to use them as late roman types as well as imperial (just a thought).

As for scenarios you've got border patrols, raids, protecting pilgrims and caravans, etc etc. If it helps anything you'd consider as a game from the crusades period you could extrapolate back to this with the Romans replacing the Western states and the Isalmic forces being replaced by one of the nationalities above. Saga might not be a bad bet for rules if you feel that way inclined, but I've not used them so can't say.

[nathan]

They are wonderfully 'generic' Roman figures, I think you could really get away with them from 1-5 th centuries AD.  Location? Well, skirmishing, policing , scouting and raiding anywhere with a desert edge boundary, from Morroco across North Africa, into Egypt, through the Levant and up to The Taurus mountains.

It looks like I have some options.  My initial thinking was that the particular arms and equipment combined with being on camels would make them suitable only for a narrow period in a certain place.  Looks like I couldn't have been more wrong  

That would give your Moors/Numidians/Berber tribes in the west, Nubian/Kushite in Sudan, the early, 'petty' Hellenistic successor kingdoms in the Levant/Judea, Jewish rebels (Peoples' Front of Judea? Spliters!), the Arabic 'oasis' kingdoms up to and including Palmyria and the Mesopotamian war zone with Parthian and the Sassanids.  Along the Judean/  Syrian border around the rise of the Sassanids might be particularly rich, with Parthians, Sassanids, strong Arabs oasis statelets, and truculent rebels against all of them.

That's a lot of options.  I've been searching and reading about the different things you mentioned and are starting to get enough of a grip on the era to start doing research in a way that makes sense.  I do like the Judean/Syrian border idea.  In the years following the death of Artabanus IV, in 224 AD.

The metal ranges you might want to take a look at are

Gripping Beast - Desert Frontier and Sassanids
A & A Miniatures  - Palmyrans, Sassanids and Parthians
Aventine - Parthian/Early Sassanids

Thanks!  I had heard of GB & Aventine, but A&A is new for me.

Given your camel riders seem fairly well swathed in turbans and scarves you might be able to use them as late roman types as well as imperial (just a thought).

This is probably something I should figure out before I paint them up.  Would the main difference be the shields?  Imperial Roman Auxilia shields vs Late Roman Auxilia shields?  Perhaps differences in the cloth colours as well.    I'll have to look into it.

As for scenarios you've got border patrols, raids, protecting pilgrims and caravans, etc etc. If it helps anything you'd consider as a game from the crusades period you could extrapolate back to this with the Romans replacing the Western states and the Isalmic forces being replaced by one of the nationalities above. Saga might not be a bad bet for rules if you feel that way inclined, but I've not used them so can't say.

Some locals play Saga and I've tried it a couple times in its normal dark ages type setting.  I was just using it as an example of a game size between a low model skirmish and a (potentially) low model battle game (like DBX/Sword & Spear/Impetus).  There's no shortage of rules out there to try.  I'll probably worry more about it after the figures are painted.

Interesting thoughts about the scenarios.  It looks like there's lot of potential here.

[Emir of Askaristan]

I'm guessing as I don't have the figures that the only difference would be in shield pattern.

Even then a simple laurel wreath design or a simple eagle would do - they're auxiliaries after all - but there are some lovely "middle" roman shields transfers out there.

[georgec]

It looks like I have some options.  My initial thinking was that the particular arms and equipment combined with being on camels would make them suitable only for a narrow period in a certain place.  Looks like I couldn't have been more wrong 

That's a lot of options.  I've been searching and reading about the different things you mentioned and are starting to get enough of a grip on the era to start doing research in a way that makes sense.  I do like the Judean/Syrian border idea.  In the years following the death of Artabanus IV, in 224 AD.

Thanks!  I had head of GB & Aventine, but A&A is new for me.

This is probably something I should figure out before I paint them up.  Would the main difference be the shields?  Imperial Roman Auxilia shields vs Late Roman Auxilia shields?  Perhaps differences in the cloth colours as well.    I'll have to look into it.

Some locals play Saga and I've tried it a couple times in its normal dark ages type setting.  I was just using it as an example of a game size between a low model skirmish and a (potentially) low model battle game (like DBX/Sword & Spear/Impetus).  There's no shortage of rules out there to try.  I'll probably worry more about it after the figures are painted.

Interesting thoughts about the scenarios.  It looks like there's lot of potential here.

Well I am not an expert, but most of the most obvious elements that differentiate between earlier and later auxiliary types, helmets, trousers etc, are either helpfully obscured or of an oriental pattern applicable throughout the period.  Would they have long sleeved tunics later?  Perhaps, but maybe you wouldn't wear those if you had all that useful robing  to wrap round yourself for sun protection.  I don't think there is a pictorial representation of these troops but these models and their 'Arabian' dress variations do remind me of, and were probably inspired by similar variations made by crusaders, Napoleonic French and the LRDG to cope with 'desert ops'

The camels and equipment do make these rare troops, I found this on Google

  https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=1D612o_X2VYC&pg=PA258&lpg=PA258&dq=auxiliary+cohort+dromedary&source=bl&ots=TJLUIHjNyB&sig=IuFAVE-t3iT3zmsv58lpMWlcogk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yU7jVOGXFYrX7Qbe0IDYDA&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=auxiliary%20cohort%20dromedary&f=false

Which confirms that you are only looking at a a handful of turmae spread across a huge area but, a bit like modern LRRPs or SF, while they were rare their 'reconnaissance and intelligence' role would have involved them in a disproportionate number of scrapes and incidents.  They would make good explortatores or body guards for a Roman 'political agent' visiting wavering desert sheikdoms in no man's land, and accounts of British political officers in these areas or on the North West Frontier playing 'The Great Game' might also give you inspiration.  This also has the advantage that once you have built a village and terrain you can use it for Old Kingdom Egyptians or ISAF patrols (if you add a smattering of generators and perhaps a satellite dish or 2...)     


 

[Mad Doc Morris]

To second georgec's posting: There were only small numbers of "dromedarii" around, most likely distributed among more regular (border) units as scouts in desert environments. There's at least one piece of evidence from 3rd century Dura Europos, a military report, mentioning such a detachment of about 20 men. A single 500 men unit, the Ala I Ulpia dromedariorum, was apparently installed during the reign of Trajan, perhaps a result from the Roman advance into the Middle East. All in all, perfect for pulpy skirmish action!

There are only a few items on these models which might look distinctively "Early Imperial": short-sleeved tunics, hobnailed sandals and short swords. However, their headgear resembles the Late Roman/Germanic spangenhelm, and the other pieces are easily covered with a bit of greenstuff, if you're so inclined.

I slightly converted the model myself to represent a 4th century Roman soldier of said area; if you don't mind, here's a link so you can take a look.

[nathan]

Well I am not an expert, but most of the most obvious elements that differentiate between earlier and later auxiliary types, helmets, trousers etc, are either helpfully obscured or of an oriental pattern applicable throughout the period.

I think I'm going to go with the era between the end of the Parthian dynasty and the rise of the Sassanids.  Maybe the early 230s when Ardashir I apparently tried raiding into Roman territory.

Which confirms that you are only looking at a a handful of turmae spread across a huge area but, a bit like modern LRRPs or SF, while they were rare their 'reconnaissance and intelligence' role would have involved them in a disproportionate number of scrapes and incidents.  They would make good explortatores or body guards for a Roman 'political agent' visiting wavering desert sheikdoms in no man's land, and accounts of British political officers in these areas or on the North West Frontier playing 'The Great Game' might also give you inspiration.  This also has the advantage that once you have built a village and terrain you can use it for Old Kingdom Egyptians or ISAF patrols (if you add a smattering of generators and perhaps a satellite dish or 2...)     

Great ideas.  I think this is shaping up nicely.  Thanks for the google books link as well.  Very interesting.  Another interesting thing I found in the 230s was a mutiny by the Syrian legions who proclaimed Taurinus their own emperor.  So I can also have political intrigue and full on rebellion and Roman-vs-Roman fighting.

To second georgec's posting: There were only small numbers of "dromedarii" around, most likely distributed among more regular (border) units as scouts in desert environments. There's at least one piece of evidence from 3rd century Dura Europos, a military report, mentioning such a detachment of about 20 men. A single 500 men unit, the Ala I Ulpia dromedariorum, was apparently installed during the reign of Trajan, perhaps a result from the Roman advance into the Middle East. All in all, perfect for pulpy skirmish action!

Definitely.  I had found the info about Trajan setting up the camelry and read a bit more about that, but thanks for the info about the detachment at Dura Europos.  I'm going to be able to do all sorts of crazy stuff with this game.  Mutiny, raiding, Christians trying to intentionally get martyred, banditry on the silk road, and all the stuff leading up to the "crisis of the third century."

There are only a few items on these models which might look distinctively "Early Imperial": short-sleeved tunics, hobnailed sandals and short swords. However, their headgear resembles the Late Roman/Germanic spangenhelm, and the other pieces are easily covered with a bit of greenstuff, if you're so inclined.

I think I'll use them as is for the 230s, but thanks for the run down on what I'd need to change.

I slightly converted the model myself to represent a 4th century Roman soldier of said area; if you don't mind, here's a link so you can take a look.

I was actually just going to post your pictures and ask about them.  I came across the pictures during an image search.  The blog post was perfect, so thanks!

One thing from your blog post:

Though I got really upset with all the figure’s detailing I couldn’t make sense of, I had some fun converting this Early Imperial Roman figure into a Late Roman centurion.

I know what you mean.  I think I'm going to be looking at as many painted examples of these figures as I can find.  Their camels are just covered with stuff and while it seems clear once it's painted, in bare metal it's hard to tell what the details are supposed to be.

[Mad Doc Morris]

Nice.

One thing from your blog post:
I know what you mean.  I think I'm going to be looking at as many painted examples of these figures as I can find.  Their camels are just covered with stuff and while it seems clear once it's painted, in bare metal it's hard to tell what the details are supposed to be.

One tip you've certainly heard before is to apply a dark wash or ink to the model before priming/painting over a light primer. That way shapes become visible more clearly.
Yet I am convinced that the sculptor didn't care too much about actual use of all the baggage items. Some are just random… stuff!

[philhendry]

One thing from your blog post:
I know what you mean.  I think I'm going to be looking at as many painted examples of these figures as I can find.  Their camels are just covered with stuff and while it seems clear once it's painted, in bare metal it's hard to tell what the details are supposed to be.

The ones in the picture at the top of the thread are mine. They are really nice figures, lovely to paint, and suit from 1st to 3rd centuries AD 'as is' - though you'd probably want to do some work to make them more suitable for 'late' Romans if, like me, you're a bit of a purist when it comes to having them wearing the right gear.

As for painting them - yes, they're a bit confusing when shiny metal, but squirt them with white primer, and it suddenly looks a lot easier.

Phil

[georgec]

I slightly converted the model myself to represent a 4th century Roman soldier of said area; if you don't mind, here's a link so you can take a look.

The long-sleeved tunic on that figure does look 'right' for the later period, in my (un-expert) opinion. 

[nathan]

Nice.

One tip you've certainly heard before is to apply a dark wash or ink to the model before priming/painting over a light primer. That way shapes become visible more clearly.

I've been priming with black acrylic gesso lately, so I'll probably drybrush them with grey and then white vallejo brush on primer so I can see everything.

The ones in the picture at the top of the thread are mine. They are really nice figures, lovely to paint, and suit from 1st to 3rd centuries AD 'as is' - though you'd probably want to do some work to make them more suitable for 'late' Romans if, like me, you're a bit of a purist when it comes to having them wearing the right gear.

Thanks for the great painted examples.  They're definitely going to be useful as sort of a painting guide in terms of figuring out what all the detail could be painted as.

The project begins!  Time to clean, pin, assemble and prime.

[axabrax]

I have those figs and also could never figure out what to do with them. I wish they had done dismounted versions of the riders as well...

[nathan]

I have those figs and also could never figure out what to do with them. I wish they had done dismounted versions of the riders as well...

That would be awesome.  I really don't have the sculpting skills to make my own, but I would love some dismounted versions.  It might be ahistorical to have them fight from camel-back, but that's what I'm going to do in my games.  Unless I finally do decide to try to convert some dismounted versions.

[Mad Doc Morris]

Well, if you want Roman soldiers in vaguely eastern gear, you could use these from Warlord:



Or, if you don't mind the difference in size and style, these from Aventine:



Both maybe as a base for conversions, too.