Perry WotR light horse pics.

[Stuart]

Border horse used a smaller crossbow known as a latch to fire from horseback, as well as pistols in the later 16c.

Mounted archers were simply that for mobility though some fought as light horse in a reconnaissance and ground holding manner in a dragoon role.

Often archer and mounted archer can mean the same or different things in contemporary records. I've found this in Tudor records so it's quite hard to figure out a quantity of mounted archers in the dragoon role.

In either case I do not believe they (mounted archers) were intended to fight from horseback, I'm sure they defended themselves but I dare say they would be no match for enemy horse.

[le bon roi rene]

One would definitely find mounted crossbowmen in continental armies of the second half of the 15th C. (notably the Swiss/South Germans, Italians). As has been already noted mounted archers would only be for mobility and not as a fighting platform.

Cheers,
Fred

[Atheling]

Whilst there's some evidence that crossbows were used from horseback, I'm pretty sure longbows weren't.

Whilst there is scant evidence of English Archers using the warbow from horseback there is as Mike Loades points out in the footage from his series Weapons that Made Britain, The Longbow a manuscript in the Bibliotheque Nationale featuring longbowmen using their bows from horseback. If you fast forward the following Youtube video to about 24.00mins he presents his case:



Interesting.....

Darrell.

[Stuart]

This image adds fuel to the fire too

[Atheling]

This image adds fuel to the fire too

Thanks Stuart.

Of course it's perfectly possible that this (and the images on the manuscript in the Bibliotheque Nationale) but.......

I think Mike Loades clearly demonstrates that it's perfectly possible to loose an arrow with a warbow from horseback. There's no earthly reason to think why his forbears would not have also done so IMHO. When you consider how much of the HYW was actually mounted raids/chevauchee it would certainly have happened from time to time- say if you're just interested in destruction, burning etc.

Of course, this not only applies to the HYW. Much of Medieval Warfare was like this in Western Europe.

Darrell.

[le bon roi rene]

Yeah, I'm gonna stick with the burden of proof is to show that English archers ever fought from horseback (apart from dropping the odd stag for their dinner).

While that is a beautiful painting, a 16th century artists interpretation of warfare doesn't move me much on this one. There is no doubt that someone _could_ loose arrows mounted, that isn't the same as fighting en mass the same way. Its notable to me that Japanese long bows differ from their English counterparts in that they were designed for better usage from horseback.

Just my thoughts.

... but I still want these models ASAP! 

Cheers,
Fred

[Atheling]

Yeah, I'm gonna stick with the burden of proof is to show that English archers ever fought from horseback (apart from dropping the odd stag for their dinner).

While that is a beautiful painting, a 16th century artists interpretation of warfare doesn't move me much on this one. There is no doubt that someone _could_ loose arrows mounted, that isn't the same as fighting en mass the same way.

I think you've misunderstood. No-one is saying that they fought en masse on horseback- simply that at times, in raids or other such circumstances it was bound to have happened.

Its notable to me that Japanese long bows differ from their English counterparts in that they were designed for better usage from horseback.

Japanese bows have not been not mentioned. It is a specific point that Mike Loades refers to in the video footage on Youtube that I presented in an earlier post. 

Darrell.

[Monty]

Very nice stuff ! 

Honestly a set I've been waiting for since the WotR range caught me. As Captain Blood and several others I was lucky enough to see the sprue and the figures in Hamburg. Honestly a set which will be one of the best Michael and Alan made so far I presume.

[Arlequín]

Another vote here for some bowmen being able to shoot from horseback - in skirmishes, raids and what have you at least. I don't think anyone here would argue against the massed archer on foot as being the typical employment.

Nevertheless if you can drop a stag, you can drop a man. Besides the one shown in this thread and the one in Mike Loades' video, there are other examples of European mounted bowmen shooting while mounted around.

There is no physical reason why a longbow couldn't be used mounted, as all the force used comes from the back, shoulders and arms; legs don't come into it, other than to keep the bow out of the ground.  

When you consider the numbers of archers identified who crossed over to become men at arms during their HYW careers too, I think its safe to say that we shouldn't be too dismissive of their ability to act as light horse either.

That being said I severely doubt every mounted archer possessed the riding or shooting skills for both these roles and I imagine some would struggle to stay mounted at anything more than a trot, presuming their nag didn't have a heart attack and keel over.

As with all things Medieval though, you can't use a broad brush and say 'everybody didn't do/did this', troops defied pigeon-holing and had no idea that they were supposed to adopt the 1970s-style job demarcation philosophy of "Ride those peasants down and shoot the ones I can't catch? *sharp intake of breath* Not my job mate, you need a dragoon for that mate".

 

[RedRowan]

These really do look great, very much looking forward to this release.

I have a lot of plastic sets from the Perry Brothers but I think the Late Medieval sets are my favourites. Each one is great as an individual box set but the fact that they have all been designed with the ability to mix and match parts is amazing.

Keeping my fingers crossed that we see more plastic additons for this range in the future. I personally would love to see something like a boxed set for Irish troops. 

Steve

[le bon roi rene]

Some good thoughts brought up here. Sometimes my thinking gets a bit rigid as I think of army composition on what might be referred to as 'grand tactical' scale. With some of the new game systems (like SAGA) many folks are gaming encounters with a few dozen to a couple hundred combatants rather than a couple of thousand.

Cheers,
Fred

[Patrice]

I've been a Re-enactor long enough to know that when a member of a Re-enactment group asks if something (some piece of cloth or equipment or way of doing things etc) could have existed, if you are fool enough to answer "yes, perhaps, but very rarely", you're sure that he will have it / do it at the next event and the next season you'll find that all your group is doing it  

Wargamers are not a different kind

As already mentioned, the purpose of mounted longbowmen/crossbowmen was to follow the chevauchée faster than on foot, and to dismount for battle, not to act as cavalry. I agree it's not impossible to shoot from horseback, but (if permitted) it should suffer very bad tactical factors in a game...

Oh - and nice miniatures BTW!  

[Atheling]

As already mentioned, the purpose of mounted longbowmen/crossbowmen was to follow the chevauchée faster than on foot, and to dismount for battle, not to act as cavalry. I agree it's not impossible to shoot from horseback, but (if permitted) it should suffer very bad tactical factors in a game...

Oh - and nice miniatures BTW!  

Hi Patrice,

I wasn't arguing for new rules to be introduced in a game, though occasionally I may introduce Mounted Warbow Loosing 'rule' to be used in some capacity in my Lion Rampant games as a rare event in certain scenarios.

My intent upon pointing out Mike Loades' theory was simply to show that it was possible and was likely to have taken place. After all, archers were employed not only because of their expert use of the Warbow but because of their versatility as soldiers (not to mention that they were a lot cheaper to employ!).

Darrell.

[Arlequín]

...and the next season you'll find that all your group is doing it  

This is very true, wargamers do tend to suffer from the "if one why not all?" mentality.  

Off the top of my head (a dangerous standpoint for any debate) the only 'nation' noted for mounted skirmisher/shooters in Western Europe was Italy (if you exclude Spain's javelin-armed Jinetes). German mounted crossbows apparently fired a single bolt to support the charge of their men at arms, then joined in the melee themselves rather than reloading... but then they appear to have been a solid body of men rather than 'skirmishers'. French Archers eventually morphed into 'medium cavalry' (not light cavalry) and abandoned the bow altogether.

The inference is that shooting while mounted was not very effective on the whole, otherwise you would have the English with the reputation as being like a latter-day Mongol horde, rather than as an infantry army where even the 'cavalry' dismounted. While you can argue for a resurgence of 'cavalry' tactics during the Wars of the Roses, when like fought against like, not so much against anyone else.

That some skilled mounted archers could apparently mimic the 'dragoons' of later times should not be taken as meaning 'all mounted archers were like dragoons'.  

*Edit* It actually might be better to say that quite a few mounted scouts (afore-riders, scowrers - call them what you will) were bow-armed, rather than to start talking about the much more numerous mounted archers as having the ability to shoot mounted. It would probably be more in context to the reality maybe.
 

[Silent Invader]

Afterall, the English countryside isn't the Mongolian steppes - all those massive medieval hedges would surely have soon unseated a force of horsemen plucking bow strings at the gallop!