The Myth of Multi-Part Plastics

[Big Martin Back]

I'm with the "I enjoy putting the figures together" camp as I like to see what variations I can build. Hence having bought half a dozen of the orignal Perry WOTR box so far and trying to get a big variety out of them. Although, I must agree with the comment made earlier - the Wargames Factory skeletons are a serious PITA. If I hadn't already hinted that there would be skeletons to fight in my next game, I might have binned the whole lot in frustration.

[Inso]

Yep, you pay your money and you take your choice.

There are pros and cons with all types of miniature... but a single posed, modular miniature is easier to convert than a single piece one so if conversion is your thing, it is better (in any type of material).

I like single piece miniatures and modular ones (even single posed, modular ones) so assembly isn't an issue for me but it is all down to personal choice.

I am sure that a lot of the reasons for multi-parting a single pose model will revolve around manufacture.

[sundayhero]

Personaly, I just think that metal minis are more "precious" than plastic or resin ones. For me metal minis are collectible pieces, plastic minis are gaming tokens.

From my own experience, I never thought that plastic minis needed less preparation work, or were easier to work with than metal minis, if you have the correct tools.

I also think that both worlds can be equally converted and customized (see for instance my last works on plastic and metal 20mm historical minis).

Plastic minis have essentially one interest : the price, usually cheaper than metal.


Long story short, I own plastic minis, but when I can afford, I always go for metal minis. 

[Malebolgia]

My favorite material is resin. It's light and can hold the most detail. Sure, it's more fragile...but I'm careful with my miniatures. Plastic or metal...don't care that much. Only thing I don't really like is Restic/Resin Plastic. Only good side of the material is its price. Other than that, it just sucks.

[n815e]

Warburton, I think that you are viewing things through nostalgic lenses.
Having been in this hobby for nearly thirty years, I recall things differently.

You mention mold lines?  Mold lines and slipped casting were always a problem with metal miniatures and could really ruin the look of a model.  It was far more common "back in the day" than it is today with metal or plastic miniatures.  Instead of simply clearing with a knife, you frequently needed a file and good luck with not taking off detail.
Identical looking armies?  LOL.  Everyone had identical looking armies because you had, in most lines, only a handful of poses (if you were that lucky) and a limited number of manufacturers.  If your chosen period allowed individuality in paint jobs then this wasn't too bad, but anything uniform looked the same.  That squad of ten guys would have many duplicate poses and if you weren't chopping them up to alter arm/hand/head/leg position to create differences then you just went with it because it was what we had and our imaginations made up the rest.
Lavish paint jobs to make up for lack of variety?  People had the same varying degrees of painting skill that they do today and unpainted miniatures hitting the table were always a problem.
Gaps always needed filling and miscasts needed fixing.  This never changed with any difference of materials.  
Multi-part metal models were usually ill-fitting and needed pinning.
Conversions were fun if that was your thing.  However, it wasn't for most people.  It was a harder task to complete, frequently needing a saw, a drill, wire and putty.  It was much easier to do badly for the inexperienced and then one ended up with a tossed-away model or something that didn't look quite right even when painted and would break when dropped.

Plastics offer more for the consumer's dollar in terms of volume and variety.
Plastics are less difficult to work with, rarely need pinning, are designed mostly so that parts fit together well with just glue.  They are easier to convert, with quick cuts that fit well together, requiring little or no pinning and putty.
Plastic may be more fragile, but being lighter they don't break as often when dropped.  

I like using both for different reasons.  I certainly am not going to take the "back in my day" and "get off my lawn" approach to things changing because I remember exactly how it was.  The challenges haven't changed, the different approaches people take haven't changed.  

What has changed are that the overall quality of products on offer has increased significantly, more people are enjoying themselves in this hobby and we have greater variety in manufacturers, periods, scales, systems and mediums than ever before.
If plastics play a part in that growth then it's a good thing.  
If you don't like them, buy something else.

For fun, here's some anti-metal ranting from 2005: http://forum.rpg.net/archive/index.php/t-177833.html

[Cubs]

A quick example.

Perry's Napoleonic Riflemen - a pretty basic multi-part plastic set of two sprues, with two torso and leg options, two arm options and separate heads and backpacks.

Forget the paintjobs, just look at the variety of poses.











Conversion was minimal - tiny bit of greenstuff here or there, for things like the scarf and ripped trousers, that's it. If you want more complex conversion, the plastic makes it so much easier to carve stuff up as you want.



Now look at what could be achieved from the Line Infantry sprues. Show me the shoulder joins there or the awkward poses.



And those are a small example of the multitude of poses you can achieve.

If you put the time and effort in, and buy good quality sets, you have a lot of top quality miniatures available.

If you don't have the time or inclination, or you buy poorer quality plastic stuff, that's fine, but you can't expect it to be any good either.

[matthais-mouse]

I have to admit this where the internet comes in handy.

If you want to buy a kit, read reviews, have a look at the sprues and if you feel that they have too many parts or arent very good pose wise, you can search online for variant kits.
You can also find all sorts of tutorials to help build those pesky models.

I have to admit, for me, I enjoy putting the kit together so lots of pieces isnt an issue for me, even with those damn single pose ones haha.

[Momotaro]

What I was getting at were the kits in AOBR, Dark Vengeance, BFSP, and Island of Blood. Painted up, they look nearly indistinguishable form the much more complex separately-sold kits, and the low parts count is actually better for certain models as there are fewer joins which makes for a more resilient figure.

GW have definitely mastered plastic production in the past couple of years, and are really getting the most from the medium.  The Chaos Space Marines and Terminators in Dark Vengeance are very cleverly engineered to build them from a small number of parts, and they still have a great sense of movement.  Single pose, but they don't look like multipart models.

The Mirkwood elves use the same techniques.  Barely a mould line on them too.

And some of the new GW plastic character models do things you'd struggle to do in metal.  Thin flowing cloaks, fine details like separate keys and pouches, realistic 3D poses.

And like Vermis, I love the new clanrats.

Shoulders?  Gripping Beast and Conquest have one or both moulded onto the torso and Conquest makes the weapon arms separate at the elbows.  It works.

Plenty of fantastic conversions showcased here as well.

I'd think of plastic as another material in your arsenal.  If you want quick clean-up, deep detail and durability, go metal - just remember it doesn't travel well.  Resin holds the best detail, allows you to reshape bits in hot water, but is most fragile.  Plastic often needs multiple parts which means more assembly and clean up, but it converts easily and allows you to go mad mixing sets and genres.  It doesn't chip, makes a strong bond and is quickly repaired.

[westwaller]

I see what the OP means about the multipart/multipose myth of plastics though. It has been mentioned here that they are two different things but I do feel that manufacturers use these terms interchangably, to mean the same thing.

Multi-part seems to be promoted as a good thing, especially by GW but to be honest I think it is just an excuse to short sell you in their case, You can buy one model for silly money but don't worry about the price, as we have given you a few extra bits and bobs worth a pound to compensate for our over-charging kind of thing. You are basically buying one or a few, minis and a bits box.

I like the Perry plastic sets, as overall they are good to work with and truly are (with exceptions) multi-pose, multipart models although I have found that the example poses they show you on the leaflets are sometimes a faff to do.

I loved my RT beakie plastics back in the day, and the mark seven plastics too (remember them?) I hated the mono marines and Orks in the RT 2nd Edition though. I agree the AOBR marines are really good too, but I have to say I don't like the seperate torso parts of the 'normal' sets of Marines. Its not a fun building task, its a waste of time. I prefer plastic to plastic rather than the plastic arms metal body thing of the late Eighties and Nineties.

I agree however that many sets say 'multi-pose' on them and this is not really true. A good example would be the Warlord ECW Infantry. I have to put certain arms on certain bodies as some just won't fit together.

Some metals are awful, some are lovely. Both plastics and metals can be a real arse to clean up in certain situations.

[Cosmotiger]

The 2nd Edition three-part mono-pose marines were dire, and the Orks and Gretchin were only slightly better. Really poor, and really boring. Sorry to say, but that's just how feel about them.

Yes, if you hate plastic armies that all look exactly the same, the 2nd edition 40K plastics are about the most egregious example of that I can think of.

[Captain Blood]

I agree however that many sets say 'multi-pose' on them and this is not really true. A good example would be the Warlord ECW Infantry. I have to put certain arms on certain bodies as some just won't fit together.

Totally agree with that. Very little versatility in that set.

[Modhail]

A shame to hear that about the Dreamforge Valkyries... I was actually looking forward to getting those, I like their design and had hoped to do some conversions with them.  But if they're really that locked in to certain poses, I may be wasting effort on them.

[warburton]

Warburton, I think that you are viewing things through nostalgic lenses.
Having been in this hobby for nearly thirty years, I recall things differently.

[...]

For fun, here's some anti-metal ranting from 2005: http://forum.rpg.net/archive/index.php/t-177833.html

Oh, definitely!

There is definitely nostalgia and so on in my view. Don't get me wrong - I have bought plastics, and I will do again in the future!

But, I prefer metal. I agree, back in the day there was some pretty dire stuff in metal, and still is sometimes, in terms of slipped casts and whatnot, but give me good metal over great plastic any day.

Part of it is I feel passionately because production is overwhelmingly going towards plastic and I am sort of the advocate for the other side, fighting the losing battle, as the tide goes against me. That no doubt strengthens my opinions....

A quick example.

Perry's Napoleonic Riflemen - a pretty basic multi-part plastic set of two sprues, with two torso and leg options, two arm options and separate heads and backpacks.

Forget the paintjobs, just look at the variety of poses.

I have that kit, and I agree it is as good a kit as you could hope for in plastic, and a good kit in its own right; essentially an example of how plastics should be. (nice paint too )

The 2nd Edition three-part mono-pose marines were dire, and the Orks and Gretchin were only slightly better. Really poor, and really boring. Sorry to say, but that's just how feel about them.

That was a bit tongue in cheek but the 2nd edition box was the high point of the concept, bettered obviously by later kits like AoBR and Dark Vengeance, whereas the standard box of tactical marines is just too many pieces and too hard to assemble. It is useful only for conversions, too me at least!

I also think a lot of it comes down to your attitude to plastic kits. If you like building things and enjoy that part of the process, then you will probably like plastic figures.
If your idea of hell is building things, and you just want to get your figures ready-made and straight onto the table, then obviously one-piece castings are for you.

It's just down to personal preference.
Like everything 

Amen! I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just stating my own, strongly held, views!

[Connectamabob]

I don't see this as a plastics problem so much as a manufacturer problem.

Resin is the best when it's done right. Most of the objections against resin are the fault of manufacturers cutting corners or not knowing the material. When resin is done right, it has better detail than either metal or plastic, and is more durable than metal. Many resins are also reposable if you heat them. There's basically no objective reason to prefer metal over good resin, only subjective stuff like "I like the weight of metal", or bad impressions garnered from experience with bad/half-bothered casters (which to be fair, are legion in the gaming mini world).

Biggest problem with resin is the desire to make resin figures cheap. Resin is the most expensive of the three, hands down, and you're never going to get them as cheap as metal without making them s**t quality, so I wish manufacturers would STOP TRYING. SERIOUSLY: STOP TRYING. YOU ARE NOT HELPING. YOU ARE THE REASON RESIN HAS A BAD NAME.

Plastic is the easiest to assemble. If you're using a good solvent cement (i.e. dichloromethane based, none of this MEK or citric acid rubbish), assembly flies faster than it would with metal or resin. No need to pin, or even true the mating surfaces. If I had to assemble a lot of figures at on time, I'd MUCH rather they be plastic than metal or resin. Sooooo much faster and easier. If you hate assembling plastics, ditch the CA and/or MEK, and get some of this: http://www.amazon.com/Weld--Acrylic-Adhesive-Applicator-Bottle/dp/B0096TWKCW/ref=sr_1_1?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1425344787&sr=1-1

Plastics do suffer from rigid molds that can't tolerate any undercuts (or even non-drafted straight sides), so rubber mold stuff like resin and metal will always have a better detail ceiling. Though to what degree this is actually exploited varies a lot, see also: Sturgeon's law.

Metal's main advantage is it's the cheapest for small runs. Also sub-par casting isn't as bad as it is with resin, so it can get away with "good enough" casting methods better.

Most of the difference between the three comes down to the manufacturer rather than the material though. There's a lot of Sturgeon's law going on in all three, so you can't really get an accurate perception just by averaging your experiences. A lot of plastics manufacturers are aggressively oversimplifying their patters in the wrong ways, resulting in minis that are both much less detailed and more complex to assemble than they actually need to be. A lot of resin makers use bottom-of-the-barrel resins cut with fillers, and don't know how to properly mold and cast with the stuff anyway, and/or use "shortcuts" that actually don't offer that much labor savings at the cost of significantly worsening their casting quality.

My main things would be:

If MSRP is an issue and you're working in small runs, go with metal, NOT RESIN. If you're a big outfit moving lots of units things may work out in plastic's favor instead, but plastic has a monstrous start-up cost, so it needs big runs to balance out. DON'T DO RESIN IF YOU WANT TO SELL BIG ARMIES/SQUADS CHEAPLY. Resin can't be done that cheap without screwing everyone, yourself included.

If you're going for higher quality and aren't afraid to charge a little more, go with resin, not metal. Just make sure you and/or your caster know what you're doing first, and are not learning on the customer's dime. Resin is for characters and skirmish teams, not armies.

If you're doing either figures larger than 50mm, or stuff that need a flying base (spaceships, winged creatures/characters, etc), go with resin. I still sometimes see people trying to make huge stuff in metal (I'm looking at you, Heresy), and it's just such a terrible idea due to weight, casting shrink, etc. Flying bases are basically levers, so making the unit top-heavy is bad, especially if it's got wingspan or length.

And if you're doing resin vehicles, for Gods sake, stop using open-backed molds! Your short sighted desire to keep the casting simple is screwing you on material costs, and screwing your customers on part fit.

[Cubs]

Bloody hell, that's informative.

I feel cleverer already. If I can remember any of this, I will certainly trip it out at a later date and pretend it's all my own work.