Women in wargames

[harleyface]

Great Post!!!

[Momotaro]

Jevenkah - thank you.

[Pijlie]

A very good post, Jevenkah.

[Jevenkah]

Thanks for the compliments, and thanks for reading all that!

Gaming, both role-playing and big battles, has brought us a vast amount of entertainment and creative expression. I'm happy to share my opinion on this topic.

Jevenkah

[Anna Elizabeth]

Well, in my opinion, I enjoy all kinds of representations of the female form, and nicely-sculpted and sexy female figures will always draw my eye. I'm about to finish painting Sorscha for my Warmachine army, I'm W-I-P on several Gorgeous women for Infinity, and I've started a few militicianas for SCW.

I don't see what is wrong about adults appreciating sexy female miniatures. Strangely, the biggest objection I've ever heard to my hobby was from a long-distance (now)ex-girlfriend that was *shocked* that I was into Napoleonics. Seriously, she reacted as if I'd joined a Neo-Nazi group, even though I own more Waterloo British than anything else, and "T" was from Australia. But "T" had zero objections to my painted minis from Dust Tactics, not even Sigrid.

I think the arguments get overblown, really. I'm Bisexual, but if you look at fashion magazines like Vogue or Marie Claire, there are a great number of sexy photographs of women, presumably intended to sell cosmetics to other women, who are mostly straight.

To each their own, and I don't have any "victim" miniatures myself. But I have minis of women warriors, chainmail bikini Barbarians, and topless Witch Elves in my collection. I enjoy them, and painting a female mini is also a pleasant diversion while I'm working on (for ex.) a regiment of British soldiers for the Sudan.

[Drachenklinge]

very interesting thread, this. I like to add a few thoughts.

First is, that I doubt, that we could have this conversation in real, even when in the same room. We would have long gone to the subject of, "wow, how did you do THAT metal?" or "Boy, I need that kickstarter, too!", but I like academic questions.

So, when looking on a crowd of - say real modern soldiers, I doubt, anyone would easily recognize any females between them, with all their gear, armoury and body hiding stuff. But given a few moments even then we could make the call.
So, actually, in a game there might be no need for special sculpted females. But then ... they just add to the mix of variation. I think, exagerated boob-plates and such are just a way to make a more obvious distinction. THAT is the female figurine. And look at the highlights on all the right places.
And there might not be many differences when in other genres or ages, historically or not. And would I REALLY have been able to distinct between  stoneage men and a stoneage woman?
In real life we all could recognize fairly easy males from females, because our sensor-systems are honed for that for about millions of years.
There MUST be a reason for this.
In gaming? We just more often than not need boob-plates.

I used to paint dwarves. But there are some obvious differences between the skin of a 300 year old dwarven warrior and that oh so smooth face of a young warrior queen. Genres and different sculpts usually forces me on to other techniques, on which my experience grew.

So, I actually do not think (much) about the overdone sexuality of female minis. If I like them, I buy them. Same with male minis. And if the breasts are not sculpted well, I will not buy them, just because they are big or naked or female.

best wishes and thanks for this thread
DK

[Vermis]

I don't see what is wrong about adults appreciating sexy female miniatures.

The age of any given person kinda deflects the issue, I think. Of course adults will naturally look a bit closer at something sexy, with the motivation and freedom to do so, but since when was the word 'adult' an assurance of reasoned, empathetic and fully-informed thinking?
As mentioned before, it might help if there were more of other minis (or more publicity of minis, like wot has gone on here) that depicted women in any other light, or that didn't warp the practicalities of that 'other light' to cater to 'the sexy'. (That is, it is possible to have sexy female minis that have more protection than a metal bra, or that don't need to do butt-thrusts when firing pulse rifles)

if you look at fashion magazines like Vogue or Marie Claire, there are a great number of sexy photographs of women, presumably intended to sell cosmetics to other women, who are mostly straight.

And aftershave ads have ripped men with designer stubble. But there's a difference between ads saying 'this is what guys/girls like and you'll be like this and get the guys/girls if you buy our stuff', and ads saying 'this is a skilled, capable person in a tough - even dangerous - occupation or situation.'

In my own view, the point of the latter is more applicable to wargaming. With that in mind, and 'fantasy' notwithstanding, it's almost like the ranks of warrior-women on the tabletop have a few too many trainees of the Marie Claire studio...

[Anna Elizabeth]

Well, the woman in the RN ad is quite attractive. I mean, I'm not going to paint my SCW milicianas as using much cosmetics, and women in a sci-fi game like Infinity might well have cosmetic tattoos or other permanent modifications.

I would like to see modern female soldier minis that were more like this:

To me, these ^ chicks are rocking the modern aviator look, being both appropriate to the mission, and quite attractive to boot.

If it's a fantasy that a woman warrior can be capable, kickin' butt, and hot looking as well, then that's the fantasy I enjoy.

[Momotaro]

Someone really needs to do a mini of Samantha Swords, Western Martial Artist, actor, RPGer and geek!

[warrenpeace]

Random thoughts:
___

Remembered these two packs from Wargames Foundry's Darkest Africa line, all but one of which are well dressed for their African adventures:

DA016 - Deadlier than the Male (Jane is the only underdressed figure of the seven)

DA018 - Roses of the Empire

Annie should probably stock those packs. Need figures like this for Rosie in the African Queen (Katherine Hepburn) or for Amelia Peabody-Emerson in Egypt (for those not familiar, a character in a mystery series).

Of course, that same Wagames Foundry Darkest Africa line also includes:

DA108 - African Villlagers

DA063 - Splendid Tribal Chieftains!

DA066 - Sleek Warrior Women

DA068 - Svelte Warrior Women

...almost all of which have women figures wearing less than the fantasy figure of Jane. But these are, I suppose, intended to be more or less historically accurate.
____

As a side note: Historical periods and places for which there are some nude male figures available:

Ancient Greece: naked hoplites and peltasts
Ancient Celts
South American natives (Amazon) into the 20th Century
Central Africa prior to the 20th Century

There's probably others, but these are all I can think of at the moment. Should be some for New Guinea.
____

Pulp has really been emerging as a miniatures genre over the last decade. Given the fantasy nature of Pulp, along with those lurid old Pulp magazine covers, it's inevitable that there are going to be some scantily clad female figures for this genre, particularly for the "jungle queen" character. But there's also a lot of female figures for Pulp that are wearing historical clothing of the 1920's, 30's, and 40's. Pulp Figures is pretty good for that. But bound victims is also a part of historical Pulp literature. I was resisting buying that Pulp Figures victim pack until last month, but finally bought it. Makes some sense to have it in the repertoire of Pulp serial adventures, both for rescue and for escape, and sacrifice to the volcano god is a must do.
___

That's it for my random thoughts...

[Drachenklinge]

What really gives me the impression of a fighter is that Samantha looks comfortable, at ease and generally "at home" in that picture. It is not a pose, it shows a feeling. If You'll attack, I can handle that.



A thought at the topic which crossed my mind a while ago and also came up a few times already, I think.

I think not that sexy miniatures are the problem, nor the attitude of most guys. If not for gaming-kids, I guess most guys just do not react more on females, than in any other situation anyway. Heck, that's to normal, to be a reason.

What I think is keeping them away might be that competetive idea within most tabletops. One army here, one there. Meet in the middle and beat the shit out of the other.

I dare say that in pen and paper RPGs the female ratio is higher. And that is basically the same genre, whatever it actually is. Also in groups where games or campaigns were more often game-master based tabletops.
I do not say, that women are not competetive, I say they do usually not want to be when in private or while gaming or in hobby-mode.

And - lets face it - game-master based games are a lot less usual, and for sure not the tabletops you meet up front first time.

Just another 2cents from me
DK

[maxxon]

Yeah, and I totally painted her for the titillation value...

Seriously, while I acknowledge that cheesecake figures exist calling them 95% or even 99% is IMHO exaggerating a whole lot (the math just doesn't work out).

In the classic Dark Eldar warrior sprues, one of the four torsos was female. Eldar Guardian sprue: likewise 25% female. Even though not quite equal opportunity, the bulk troops of both these armies should contain loads of females.

Did most people even notice?

The physique is lithe anyway, and you have to take a pretty close look at the torso to spot the difference. Granted, you could call them all sexualized with their form-fitting armor, but then the men are just as objectified as the women.

With bulky armor, loose clothing and visored helmets, how are you even going to tell the difference?

I think that's the issue: The cheesecake figures stand out (they are also typically sold as singles instead of part of units) while the sensible ones blend in.

For the record, I have way more naked and bare-chested male figures than similar females. You just have to look at ranges where such attire is historically accurate to find multitude of choices.

[Arrigo]

Ok... missed the thread...

well I never really got interested in female miniatures until... I met a nice girl and, after we become friends... I discovered sh is a PLA officers... because she likes my painting style I wanted to do a mini for her... because Keith and Paul are not putting the promised PLA officer out... I looked around. I realized that a lot of female miniatures have nothing feminine except exaggerated tits... say what you want but back in the deep of the thread the OP had a point. It is like a lot of sculptors simply think they slap on a balnd and badly sculpted mini two big things and a bit of flesh...

On the other hand there is Hasslefree and their likes. I have their Harley that I painted as a fiction JGSDF officer. I base her a bit on a BA officer I once met (being a tad dumb I assumed she was a civilian employee... then I saw her at 8am in uniform, with Major badge, when she got me at my accommodation to drive me to the DCDC building... I snapped at attention... she asked me why I did such a stupid thing... oh well from army cadet officer, when I see Major ranks sometime I still snap... she was younger than me and I was supposed to deliver some wargaming workshop ot her and other people... but why I am always telling these things?  ). But still how many decent female miniatures we have? I asked recommendations for a Tomoe Gozen few weeks ago... and some of the things I got recommended were quite frankly horrid.

Ok finishing... I do not think naked women are putting off female gamers or are bad by default, but too often these features are exaggerated to hide poor sculpts and that, if you think it a bit, it a bit of an annoying habit.

[randycarter]

Hi all,
first of all I admit I didn't follow this interesting thread as a whole, so, if I'm going to say something already said by others, I apologize by now.

I think that the perspective of narration can be interesting in viewing the issue. My opinion is that our hobby - just like the near RPG hobby - has a lot to do with narration. I think that, at various levels, we all tell stories - stories of battles in our case - when we play games and even when we model and paint our armies. After all even this forum is called Lead Adventure, and a lot of people here makes great efforts in putting character in their models and armies.

When one tells a story, I think that everything is good, even over-sexualization of characters. If I'm sexist in telling my story, I think it depends by the story I tell. As example: I found hard state that a movie like Machete is blatantly sexist. Characters are clearly over-sexualized, but doesn't fit in sexual stereotypes, I think. Another - oppsite IMO - example is 300, where characters are strongly sexualized and fit in various gender stereotype.

I think - and this is my last suggestion - that when the attention on the story we told weakens - as in competitive tournament-like enviroments - the problem of sexualization becomes present. For such an audience I think miniatures become tokens and few more. In this case (that maybe is the mainstream on the market) I see marketing intentions in sculpting miniatures in determinated features - because sex (I agree with Jevenkah) sells.

Hope I brought some good contribution to the discussion (and apologize for my poor english).