Women in wargames

[duhamel]

 
http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=59001.0

[Tactalvanic]

I completely agree with the OP (but who would have thought otherwise  ) However, I find it sad that the first answers to his post were on the level of TMP, including the image. Great style of discussion and a real showcase for the intellectual achievements of our hobby! 

Anyway, I'll keep away from this thread, I don't want to waste the time of our poor moderator. answer_is_42, drop me an PM if you want to discuss your points, I'd be interested in developing this.

Before I let this thread take its course, I just want to point the interested reader to my take on this topic (https://wargamingraft.wordpress.com/2015/01/16/wargaming-warrior-women/) as well as to The Dicebag Ladies great project on great female miniatures (http://thedicebaglady.net/female-miniatures/)

Cheers
Shandy

P.S.: And of course the whole argument based on "the traditional roles men and women held since the dawn of mankind" is, let's say it euphemistically, on shaky grounds.

Thanks! I was going to completely leave this alone, but suddenly, you posted something useful and interesting.

Was not expecting that 

So big thanks, blog bookmarked and other site to browse, and I will run away from topic damn quick

[Cherno]

[...]
Yes, of course, I'm not arguing that wargaming should attempt some sort of revolution in this. My point is about the total imbalance in representation; there are far fewer naked men than women, and the sexualisation of women appears to dominate every depiction of them in scifi/fantasy wargames ranges. If men were all depicted in the same way it wouldn’t be such an issue, but they, as a general rule, are not.
[...]

As I wrote in my post, men traditionally are NOT an image or a symbol for fertility and sexuality.

P.S.: And of course the whole argument based on "the traditional roles men and women held since the dawn of mankind" is, let's say it euphemistically, on shaky grounds.

Please do elaborate. Are you arguing that the vast majority of cultures, throughout known history, have placed women into a social position as child bearers and household keepers while men were bread winners, leaders or fighters? This is not about seeing the positive or negative aspects in this, this is about seeing historical facts.

[Dr. The Viking]

Guilty as charged, I suppose. Not sure what this has to do with anything I've written though.

Well excuse me! The point of your original post seemed to be to hear people's opinions. My post reflected my opinion. 

You can't just pick out one sentence and have a go at it.

[harleyface]

just showed those western females to my wife without telling her why.
She said...WOW great minis ...are you going to buy those...
really cool stuff....
So maybe its even discrimination if a men decides whats offending....

[answer_is_42]

As I wrote in my post, men traditionally are NOT an image or a symbol for fertility and sexuality.

The sheer amount of phallic imagery, statues of naked gods, etc, etc,  found in civilisations across the world suggests against this, though it doesn't really have much to do with what I'm arguing here. I'd like to think that, as a society, we no long see men and women as simply 'warriors' and 'mothers'. I'd also like to think it possible that we have reached a point where we don't feel the need to reduce any image of the female form to a sex object. Unfortunately, the world of fantasy wargames does not appear to have kept pace with this idea.

Well excuse me! The point of your original post seemed to be to hear people's opinions. My post reflected my opinion.

Apologies, though you must admit you didn't really give me much to run with.

I must admit that I fail to find an actual problem in this.

Care to elaborate?

The whole thing comes across to me as unbelievable first worldish and academic.  

See above.

One could argue that the whole of the hobby is grotesque and leads to nothing but excessive spending and waste.

One could, indeed, but I don't really see the connection here. I'm arguing that a specific aspect of a hobby which I otherwise thoroughly enjoy is grotesque, I'm not arguing for the destruction of the whole thing.

I mainly paint stuff that I find looks nice. Hardly ever women.  

Me too. My concern is that for people who do buy and paint female figures the selection is overwhelmingly slanted towards the hyper-sexualised, which they nevertheless seem to buy in significant, one might say worrying, quantities.

just showed those western females to my wife without telling her why.
She said...WOW great minis ...are you going to buy those...
really cool stuff....
So maybe its even discrimination if a men decides whats offending....

Well I know three women who have expressed discomfort with the depiction of women in wargames, so I guess my anecdote trumps yours.

The point about 'men deciding what offends' is an important one though. I suppose that, as there are so few women in the hobby, I feel as though I should say something. And anyway, as a feminist I am offended* by the figures, so I'm not really speaking for anyone but myself here anyway.

*"offence" is a pretty tricky subject these days. I'm not suggesting here that, as an offended party, everyone should take notice and change to accommodate my offence. I'm not going to try to stop people making or buying these figures. I'm just highlighting what I regard as a not-particularly-pleasant aspect of our hobby, and wondering why everyone seems to accept it without a word.

[Momotaro]

Oh go on then...

You seem to be making this argument:

1) There are very few women in wargaming;

2) There are elements of wargaming that sexualise women.  

3) I dislike these ("corrupting");

4) Women also dislike these;

5) Therefore women are discouraged from wargaming;

6) We need more women in wargaming;

7)  Therefore we need to remove these barriers to entry.

The only elements of the argument fully I agree with are 1) and 2) - the basic observations.  Let's go through the rest of your assumptions...

3)  These elements are corrupting.  Are they?  Which elements?  Nudity?  breasts? Cheesecake art?  Sexualisation?  Are there contexts in which these might not be corrupting?  Plenty of people to whom a breast is "here's mum with dinner".  Do you think that nudists are corrupt?  Are women more sexualised than men in art and photography, or are you simply not aware of it when you look at a picture of a soldier with rippling pecs, two-day stubble and haunted grey eyes?

The brother Vinni "Victim" sculpts are awful - the naked "Ukrainian Captive" hints at some pretty unpleasant aspects of modern warfare.  But "promoting violence" or crap 70s style bondage porn?  Plenty of "Ilsa, She-wolf of the SS" minis out there - tacky yes, funny, yes, but degrading?

4) Women also dislike these.  Do they?  What about the cosplayers, or women who make cheesecake art or paint nudes?  Georgia O'Keefe and her "flowers"?  Women into burlesque; women who want to look like that or read gossip magazines full of pictures of beautiful women (and the terrible failures who have gained a pound!).  Readers of 50 Shades?

5)  If it was just sexist imagery keeping women out of wargaming, you'd expect the same to be true of video games and RPGs.  These hobbies have far more women in them, which hints at something else.  Maybe it is the clublike atmosphere and gross boys, in which case you'd expect to see more women-only clubs.  Do they exist?  if not, what is it?

Do lots of women just not like wargaming?  The videogame stats indicate that men tend to play shooting games more and women go more for RPGs and mobile games (and I use the word tend - no absolutes here).  I get the impression that many men are "just not into" gossip mags and dollshousing.

Is it the themes?  The main wargame is grimdark and cruel and hopeless - not really appealing? Doomed gothic romance seemed to bring in a lot of female Vampire RPG players.

Women are well-represented in our hobby as sculptors and painters, but not as players.  Indeed, there are whole creative hobbies out there - pastelling model horses, customising and painting dolls - that intersect minis painting and modelling but where men appear to be largely absent. So the creative impulse is there, but women are not expressing it as tabletop wargamers.  Is it playing war?  Or playing with toys?

It may well be that women are treated very badly and there's an initial acceptance hurdle that very few are getting over; it may be that tacky art and softcore minis do put them off.  But a lot of women are smarter and tougher than that, there are women who may like that stuff, and again there are other areas like RPGs (online and tabletop) where they do play.  What's your evidence for saying the hobby does have a problem?

6)  We need more women in wargaming.  Need or want?  Do we need more male readers of 50 Shades?  More women into RC cars?  What if women don't want to play?

7)  You can see I have a lot of questions before you get to 7... and I reckon that I'd like to hear a lot more from women gamers.

[harleyface]

Maybe its all just about fleeing reality...i like my dream worlds the way they are...women are sexy smart
men are strong and dumb..oh wait a minute...i feel offended....
hey..they are games and everybody can chose what he likes...
even if you just play historical correct you discriminate women....there want be any on the table
Please dont take it too serious...

[answer_is_42]

Oh go on then...

You seem to be making this argument:

1) There are very few women in wargaming;

2) There are elements of wargaming that sexualise women.  

3) I dislike these ("corrupting");

4) Women also dislike these;

5) Therefore women are discouraged from wargaming;

6) We need more women in wargaming;

7)  Therefore we need to remove these barriers to entry.

I wasn't actually posting this on the subject of female gamers (see my OP first paragraph). I suggested it might put women off, based on nothing but assumption and conjecture. Maybe it doesn't. I don't know, it's not what I intended to post about, I shouldn't have raised the point. Our culture tends to drive women away from 'war', as a subject, but I can't imagine miniatures like those I have pointed out help.

See my comment above on offence. I would suggest that probably quite a large number of women would be offended too. Take the 50 Shades analogy. Do some women like reading books which sexualise females? Yes. Would they like it if ninety-five per cent of novels overtly sexualised females? probably not.

To reiterate, this is my point: there is an overwhelming imbalance of sexualised female figures, as compared to non-sexualised. Yes, I do think it rather degrading, especially when taken to extremes.

[eilif]

See my comment above on offence. I would suggest that probably quite a large number of women would be offended too. Take the 50 Shades analogy. Do some women like reading books which sexualise females? Yes. Would they like it if ninety-five per cent of novels overtly sexualised females? probably not.

To reiterate, this is my point: there is an overwhelming imbalance of sexualised female figures, as compared to non-sexualised. Yes, I do think it rather degrading, especially when taken to extremes.

I have my own opinions regarding the level of sexualization I am comfortable with in my miniatures, but that's not really here nor there for the wider discussion.  I think the imbalance is what I find most distressing, what most shows wargaming's true view of women and what I suspect is turning some women away form wargaming.

In sci-fi and fantasy wargaming, what percentage of women portrayed as strong, and competent are NOT also portrayed in a sexualized manner?  The answer to that alone should provide some measure of the imbalance in how the wargaming hobby portrays women.

The answer of course is that nearly every miniature of a competent and strong woman (leaving aside the slave minis, etc) also gives her the figure of catwalk model and armor that does more to accentuate her chest, rear and waistline (if they're covered at all) than it does to offer real protection.

I'm not a woman and I haven't polled the women I know (though I may start asking some of them) but I don't think it has escaped the notice of females who have contact with the wargaming world that alot more female than male models seem to be dressed as fetish doms.

[Momotaro]

I wasn't actually posting this on the subject of female gamers (see my OP first paragraph). I suggested it might put women off, based on nothing but assumption and conjecture. Maybe it doesn't. I don't know, it's not what I intended to post about, I shouldn't have raised the point. Our culture tends to drive women away from 'war', as a subject, but I can't imagine miniatures like those I have pointed out help.

See my comment above on offence. I would suggest that probably quite a large number of women would be offended too. Take the 50 Shades analogy. Do some women like reading books which sexualise females? Yes. Would they like it if ninety-five per cent of novels overtly sexualised females? probably not.

To reiterate, this is my point: there is an overwhelming imbalance of sexualised female figures, as compared to non-sexualised. Yes, I do think it rather degrading, especially when taken to extremes.

Yeah, I... ran with it a bit...

Looking at GW, there's a range of options, from sensibly dressed LotR figures to blatant "stripper" Dark Elf Wytches.  Sisters of Battle have an... interesting range of dress options too.  Dark Eldar Wytches may be steroid-pumped bondage freaks, but they are at least equal opportunities freaks these days.

I'd say that there are a lot of sensible minis out there - Reaper make a lot of fantasy models, some might have boobplate but are properly dressed.  Dreamforge do a set of female SF panzerjager where they've tried to take differently proportioned female bodies into account under all the armour; companies like Red Box and Mierce will sell you sensibly chainmail-clad warriors.  

Hasslefree does a mix too - everything from sensibly dressed strong women to harem girls.  I have one of their Libby character models that has very big breasts, but the model is fully clothed, in a simple standing pose and has the physique of a real woman.

Apart from extreme cases (and I can think of a few), I think genre models have moved a long way from the "stripper nuns with guns" stereotype.  Imbalance?  95% sexualised?  Not counted them, so I can't say which way the market tips.  I think you can buy the kind of model that you want - I have dozens of female models, but I've painted two pairs of naked female boobs in the past 15 years, both on historical figures, and another two models are what I'd call cheesecake.

In the end, I don't think this is corrupting, either to the way we perceive women or the way we treat them.  In a way, many of the "titillating" models are almost comically vintage these days compared to the anatomically brutal kind of porn that is so readily available.

I think it is important to hear what women gamers have to say; the gender imbalance in the hobby is something of a mystery to me.  If the consistent message from women gamers was that the models are degrading, or that it was keeping them out the hobby, I'd certainly think again.

[FramFramson]

There appear to be several complaints being conflated as one here.

One is the absence of women in wargaming, which is a fair issue to discuss and one with several causes behind it.

The other is the existence of what are essentially pornographic or racy miniatures, almost all of which are being made for heterosexual male wargamers.

The two issues have some crossover, sure, but they are not actually the same issue, not unless gamers are somehow forced to include their porn in their games by rule.

It is up to a game player or GM to exercise good taste or consider who they would like to play with and under what circumstances - if you're too dumb to create an atmosphere where players are welcome and comfortable, then you will have fewer players and less fun. But complaining that pornographic or sexualized miniatures exist at all is a completely fruitless task, IMO; porn will never not exist, and that's fine so long as it's recognized for what it is and not misrepresented as something more noble.

As I wrote in my post, men traditionally are NOT an image or a symbol for fertility and sexuality.
Please do elaborate. Are you arguing that the vast majority of cultures, throughout known history, have placed women into a social position as child bearers and household keepers while men were bread winners, leaders or fighters? This is not about seeing the positive or negative aspects in this, this is about seeing historical facts.

This sort of thing gets trotted out a lot and I'm afraid it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Sure, there's sort of a flimsy validity to this argument if you're playing purely historical miniatures, but as it turns out, women have been surprisingly present in real wars in the past. There are more than enough historical precedents to include at least few female figures in even most scrupulously accurate historical scenarios.

But very few of us are playing anything with an eye to absolute perfect historical accuracy in the first place, and many of us are playing fantasy, sci-fi, or other games based purely in fiction - so there are no "rules" to constrain us. If you want to drag retrograde gender roles into your fantasy world, that's your decision as the GM, that's the world you wish to create.

[harleyface]

Hope its not too far off topic
but...
have you ever thought about us germans...
we are the evil guys...
thats historical correct
have you ever thought about discriminating a generation not beeing enymies
no...?
because thats ok...i never was discriminated in real life and thats the important thing.
have you ever played a ww2game with good nazis...
fighting for mislead reasons for their country..?
I would like nice nazis  

[Momotaro]

There appear to be several complaints being conflated as one here.

One is the absence of women in wargaming, which is a fair issue to discuss and one with several causes behind it.

The other is the existence of what are essentially pornographic or racy miniatures, almost all of which are being made for heterosexual male wargamers.

The two issues have some crossover, sure, but they are not actually the same issue, not unless gamers are somehow forced to include their porn in their games by rule.

Yeah... that would be me crossing the streams    For what it's worth, I did mention (if you can be bothered to read my wall of test, and God knows I barely can) that I didn't think they were the same issue.  I don't think women are avoiding wargaming because of cheesecake art/minis, or they'd be avoiding RPGs and computer games too.  And I don't think it corrupts male gamers.

As for the "being forced to play x", if you go to shops or play with strangers rather than friends for your gaming (of any sort), well the internet is full of horror stories about the kind of pond life you may encounter as a male or female gamer.  Which gave rise to the old RPG maxim "No gaming is better than bad gaming".

[FramFramson]

Hope its not too far off topic
but...
have you ever thought about us germans...
we are the evil guys...
thats historical correct
have you ever thought about discriminating a generation not beeing enymies
no...?
because thats ok...i never was discriminated in real life and thats the important thing.
have you ever played a ww2game with good nazis...
fighting for mislead reasons for their country..?
I would like nice nazis  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_for_Castle_Itter