Empress SCW question

[AlexM]

Hello,

Jyst getting into SCW, and am having some trouble picking figure packs...

in the interest of variety, can Falange an Foreign Legion miniatures be used interchangeably?

I'm having a hard time telling from some of the pictures on the site...

Thanks in advance!

[Durutti]

Ok
Main difference is the webbing, The legion have Mills pattern, whilst the Falange figures have standard Spanish kit.
Most of the Legion have those funky trousers too.
You can use the Falange as legion, its really just a paint job, and as the war went on, they could not replace thier Mills pattern, so they utilised the Spanish web kit.
Legion as Falange, perhaps not so, as the kit is distinctive, but who is to say that falangists did not scrounge kit off dead Legion bodies ( Unlikely though).

[Londoncopper]

Just paint them as Legion, a Welshman who served in the Legion tells how his webbing was taken from a dead militia man on the Madrid front so even in the early days kit was being scrounged.

[Arlequín]

Personally I'd happily mix and match them... perhaps leaving the heavily-bearded figures out of a Falange unit.

As for the Legion having Mills-pattern webbing, I've seen photos from the early '20s where they have, but in the GCE they seem to have the Spanish leather types... as do these guys in Sevilla 1936 - straight off 'Hitler Airlines'. One guy (third from right) even has the Spanish grenade pouches.



As the arms of most figures obscure the pouches for the most part, it's not so noticeable. If I was going to worry about anything, it would be that the light machine gunners have a Chauchat instead of a Hotchkiss, rather than their ammo pouches.

The Legion wore both the cotton 'Verano' granadero trousers, which have that 'funky' baggy look and the wool-blend 'Invierno' ones which are less clown-like, depending on the season... in either case it was the same type and colour worn by the rest of the army, from which the Falange also got their gear. The only uniquely 'Legion' item was their shirt, which was just a different colour to that of the standard army shirt.

[AlexM]

Thanks everyone! That's what I suspected, but I wanted to be sure before pulling the trigger! Good point on the Chauchat, I would not have caught that...

[scrivs]

I painted a Legion Chauchat team up to go with my Falange.



And another one as La Legion:



I have separate Legion and Falange forces but apart from the breeches the figures are pretty much interchangeable.

[Arlequín]

I have separate Legion and Falange forces but apart from the breeches the figures are pretty much interchangeable.

The 'granadero' trousers were pretty much universal items on both sides and in the Nationalist Army were also issued to the Falange and the Requetés too. The only time you don't see them is when soldiers were wearing the army version of the civilian 'mono', or when they have civilian trousers instead of uniform ones and of course the 'battledress-style' EPR uniform when it was introduced. In your pics the figures with puttees is wearing them over the same trousers that the bearded guy is wearing.

You could even mix both the Legion and Falange figures in with the Requetés... they didn't initially all wear berets (or uniforms), although it was their most common distinctive feature... the odd gorillo (or even steel helmet from the 'infantry' packs) amongst the mass of black and red berets creates suitably irregular Requetés for the first year or so of the war.
 
   

[AlexM]

Thanks for all the help guys, and those figures look great!

Would it be out of place for La Legion to have steel pots on? I noticed the mortar crews had helmets on some of the figures....

[Arlequín]

That's a really good question and I actually don't have a clue.   

I can't say I've ever seen a photo of them wearing them, but then most photos are taken out of action in any case. I suspect the legion ethos and machismo might result in them not being worn, but there is no reason why they would not be issued them, they had the pick of anything going otherwise.

[scrivs]

I split two mortar packs and painted the ones in helmets as Republicans and the ones in hats as legion.

[Durutti]

Frank Thomas ( Welshman who served in the Legion) mentions about their lack of steel helmets, its more of a machismo thing, and the ethos of the Legion.

As far as kit goes,amongst the irregular (militia type ) formations, there is virtually no element of uniformity, sometimes its just a shirt, or a hat, or an armband that will distinguish which side you belong to. The Army of Africa was quite distinctive, with both the Regulares and the Legion sporting some sort of uniform, as were the Guardia Civil and Asaltos. The Republican and Nationalist army had a mixed bag of kit, but were more regular looking than The International Brigades, who appear to have sported a miss matched cross between military and civilian kit and clothing.

Part of the fun for me, is collecting a mish mash of figures, and then with a bit of judicious head swappery, and a careful paint job you can assemble some rather eclectic looking units for the rag tag mobs, and a more uniform looking selection for the more regular types.

If you fancy having a crack at head swapping, then, (and here is a shameless bit of self promotion), have a look at the video I made, you can skip past the waffling old git at the start if you fancy  




As for the question of the Chauchat?

Well I did my research when I commissioned Paul to sculpt the figures, and here is something you might like to have a quick look at,

www.amonio.es/chauchat.htm

from this very informative site

http://www.amonio.es/index2.htm

the bottom section translated reads as

Artemio Mortera want to make some clarifications on this weapon:

"In early October 1936, General Orgaz hoped to then Lieutenant Commander Don Pascual Cervera that were depleted stockpiles of Morocco and the Peninsula and, if not immediately getting 1,500 guns have to stop the advance on Madrid. Providentially, a few days later, on the 18th of October- the gunboat "Canovas del Castillo" which sent Pascual Cervera precisely captured in the Strait Greek steamer "Sylvia" whose arms shipment Maxim machine guns were part 250 (other sources said they were Schwarzlose), 1,260 machine guns 15nA Bergmann MG 100 machine guns and 5,000 BAR! Chauchat automatic rifles.

Such was the urgency of these weapons had to be his immediate departure to the various fronts without "wasting time" in post them ordered, thus becoming one of the machine guns commonly used by the national army. So that, even were accompanied by 36,078 porters, had to be established building them in the Ordnance Factory of Seville, where were completed 30,100 more. Moreover, continued being captured Chauchat in various fighting: an internal report of National Recovery Service counted 326 taken from the enemy between 18 July 1937 and 13 July 1938. In these circumstances, we find the CSRG in virtually all national divisions; particularly during 1937.

The French submachine gun was really pretty bad and was welcomed into the national units with a certain distrust. They even recalibrated, via test, several Chauchat so he could fire the 7.92 Mauser cartridge, but the truth is that the gun did not give more of himself. In any case, the national army was busy winning the war and could not afford to "throw away" the weapons that he did not like, as Gurney that made their adversaries "

He adds:

"Stirring my papers, I found a status of forces of the Military Government of Asturias dated September 10, 1937 in which all the weapons they had at the moment is collected, appearing between him 209 8.03 French machine guns. And, certainly not in rear units, but as endowments, for example, the 4th Tabor Regulars of Ceuta, or Tabores 2nd and 4th of Mehal-la de Gomara. "

I also have a nice book about the Condor Legion, which says that they reassembled a number of Chauchats in an attempt to improve the gun, and these were sent out to frontline units to provide much needed support.


Looks very much like everybody got saddled with that pile of poo LMG, I must convert some poor Moroccans into a Chauchat team 


The Spanish Civil War, a great period to get into, lots to discuss, lots to learn, and dare I say, it has something for everyone  


Ah and BTW that Frank Thomas book is called  "Brother Against Brother" and is well worth reading, as its a rarity in being a book that is based around a Brit serving Franco, and not the International Brigades
Also worth a look, and it may be an order from the library, as this book is harder to find than rocking horse shit,
Peter Kemp "Mine Were Of Trouble" he served with both the Carlists, and the Legion.

[Arlequín]

I don't doubt you did your research, that is clearly obvious from the range itself... although I did wonder why the Chauchat and not either of the two types of Hotchkiss which were the official issue weapon of the Legion; but granted stocks of any machine gun elsewhere were running at below 50% or so of those required by the rest of the Army on its peacetime establishment.

I can accept that in the early months the Nationalists (and Republicans) used whatever fell into their hands, but the site you quoted says this in the description;

"The National Army seized several weapons of this type, but they were not used on the front, only in Academies for the instruction of soldiers".

Mortera's sources are not given but other sources say the 5,000 from the Silvia all went to the Northern Front... so that challenges 'various fronts' and indeed 326 were captured from the Republicans from what I can gather. Just to be clear, the "30,100" is referring to cartridges made not weapons, as 'cargadores' must mean cartridges (or clips/strips/magazines more correctly) and not 'porters' as you've translated.

The last bit referring to the Asturias only lists two units as examples... one is Mehal-la, who as the Sultan's own police did not have light machine guns in Morocco, so would of course need them to fight in Spain and the 4° Tabor of Regulares (3° GFRI de Ceuta) were a new unit raised after the start of the Civil War, so would obviously lack them too. The total for the Asturias of 209 is a big drop from 5k in 13 months though.  

In any case there is nothing said at all about the Legion carrying them. All that apart the only picture I have ever seen of the CSRG in Spain was one in the hands of a Nationalist soldier.

In all its small 'alubias' though... it's still the best set of 28mm figures going.  

[Durutti]

I was going back to "correct" the Legion models, and add a M14 Hotchkiss HMG team, along with some more riflemen, and a more in keeping LMG team equipped with the M22 Hotchkiss.
Events however stopped me from continuing with the range, which is a pity, because there are a  number of models I would like to have got done.

The awful translation is down to google, me being too lazy to work my way through the text, with my limited Spanish  

I'm going to have a crack at converting one of the teams myself, so pics when I have completed the "job"
Also have  a half built Maxim-Tokarev laying on the workbench, which I hope will cast ok, for me to use with various figures too.

I'm cracking on with doing a lot of stuff, to flesh out my own collection, as I want to put on a game next year, with it being the 80th anniversary, the idea being, puting on a 1936 battle, for 2016, followed by a 1937 battle for 2017  and so on.
should be fun  

thanks for the corrections, does make the whole thing a bit clearer. I shall continue to hunt down relevant information, the best sources are Spanish, and I really must try harder to learn the language better.

And the Chauchat? Well that was my fault entirely, I asked Paul to make the LMG teams, but did not tell him which LMG, when he asked I think i just said the French one, because I could not recall the exact model of Hotchkiss !!! We had discussed the Chauchat before, and were laughing about how dreadful it was.Paul must have remembered this, and gave the models that gun. In my haste to get the models cast, and on sale, I missed the fact that they had the Chauchat.......... useless git 

[Arlequín]

Well I'm working in Spain so I have had no choice but to learn and have come across more than a few past glaring errors of my own. I also keep in mind that you had the figures commissioned *harrumph* years ago and between then and now a lot more research has been done on the SCW, which button-counters like myself can use to beat others over the head with.


It's recognisably a 'light machine gun', so for me that works... I dare say whichever model of Hotchkiss you would have gone for might have turned out to be wrong to someone's mind in any case. For all I know someone out there may very well have a photo of a Legionario toting one... I've learnt that the SCW is nothing but full of surprises.


A timely reminder that next year is the 80th anniversary though... it hadn't occurred to me. I'll be looking forwards to seeing what you come up with, especially if that HS 'militia' sedan you started is amongst it!

[Londoncopper]

Thank you gentlemen, this has turned into a very interesting and informative discussion.
I will get my girlfriend to read those links as she is very fluent in Spanish, once I can spare her from her duties crossing the frontier from Gibraltar into Spain to pick up my orders from E-Minis in La Linea!