What do you think about this compressor ?

[Atheling]

Hi,

It was the first compressor I was planning to buy, but since this is a loud shop compressor, I thought some extra tank capacity (24L instead of 6L) would be better for the kind of work I'm planning (90% scenery painting, 10% model and figures painting).

Ah, it would be mainly mini painting that I would be looking for- I'll start another thread methinks.....

Darrell.

[Connectamabob]

I fear that a simple 3L compressor will be too weak for the kind f work I have to do (like painting 10feet of rivers, or cover a 2 meter square gaming mat).

That's actually the sort of thing which will have a MAJOR impact on your choice of brush as well.

In terms of broad coverage over that kind of areas (like primer coats or overall base colors), that's actually verging on HVLP sprayer territory. 2m² would be really pushing it for a normal airbrush, at least as far as base coverage goes. Trying to evenly cover that with an AB will have you spraying for hours. At the very least you'll want an airbrush with a very large needle and a large paint reservoir. Look for an AB model that's bottom fed (or side fed with a bottle adapter option) and has a .7 size needle/tip option. Something like the Grex TS5, or the Iwata HP-G6 (sorry, I'm not familiar with french vendors, or what sort of customs fees might impact buying from non-french vendors).

Even if you're talking about detailing a large area rather than just an overall blasting of color, that's enough area that you'd want an auto graphics style brush rather than a modelling or illustrating brush.

Figure out the most demanding tool you're likely to use (not just for painting: any air tool), check it's pressure/volume needs, and use that as a minimum.

The compressor you're looking at should be just fine for either of the above airbrushes. Not good for HPLV though, at least not without a larger tank.

I would like to know how long (in minutes) will a 24L compressor will keep working (standard airbrush work) without switching for refilling ?

This will also depend on what tank pressure you set the compressor to shut on/off at. High tank pressure will let you spray for longer (high turn on & low shut off pressure values), but will also require the compressor to run longer to refill the tank.

I have a 12 gallon tank (approx 100L) filled to 100psi (approx. 7 bar), which gives me about 20 minutes to half an hour of airbrushing at 10-20psi (approx. .5-1 bar), or about 10 minutes at 60psi (4 bar), and takes about 10 minutes to refill using my .8cfm(22.6lpm) compressor. However I let the tank drain significantly before I refill it. If I were setting the compressor to only top off the tank every 10 psi, it'd probably run for 2 minutes every 5, or something like that.

There's definitely math to sort this out proper, but I don't know it. The numbers are simple to calculate as static volumes, but I don't know how compression would effect the equation, which it almost certainly would.

Concerning the extra filter I will need, is this :

http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B010D5AYLG?colid=18BUE4UDB226G&coliid=I14ZW63DQ2BQPY&ref_=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl

the kind of thing I need to add at the end of my hose, near my workspace, to plug my airbrush in ?

Yes. That's exactly the sort of thing. Just make sure you read the customer reviews carefully, as there's a lot of cheap rubbish fly-by-night manufacturers these days.

[sundayhero]

thank you a lot for your complete answer !

Perhaps an even bigger tank (50l) would be better, I'm surprised by the numbers you gave, I thought a 24L would allow me to work half an hour at least 

Concerning the refilling time, the MEcafer model I show is 85L/min, so it should refill quite fast 24L, no matter the setting I use. I will not buy anything lower than 80L/min.

Concerning the "large aera" airbrush, this is the kind of tools I was planning to buy (or at least, a chinese version  ).

For the filter regulator, I was planning to also buy a dual connector, so I can plug a paint gun and a double action fine detail airbrush.

Now I've got a pro workshop, I simply need a shop compressor. For the kind of work I plan, I will probably save money on the airbrush/guns, at least for now.

thank you, I'll let you know my choices. (and I have to make pics of my workshop also !)

[sundayhero]

Hi,

I made my measurements, in the place I want to install the compressor, I have juste enough room for the 24L tank (85L/min, 8bar) compressor.  As I said, it will be installed in a condamned fireplace in the workshop, I will also install noise insulation to lower the noise as much as possible.

On the top of the fireplace, I'll make a big (60cm wide, for scenery it will be more convinient) paint booth with daylight lamp and powefull Sunon fans (probably 220m3/hour each) for air extraction.

The compressor will also be near my big central table (130x130cm) for biggest scenery pieces, or gaming mats.


I'll follow your advises for the paintgun and airbrush too. Maybe put a bit more money on the (gravity, right?) HVLP spraygun wich will be used professionnaly, and buy a cheap chinese dual action gravity airbrush for my own hobbies purposes.

[sundayhero]

Hi,

I bought the compressor today, a real bargain (89euros) I think. i'll post pics tonight.

Now I'm doing my accessories list : adapter, filter regulator, hoses, etc...And, of course, the airbrushes.

For the fine detail airbrush, I'll go for a cheap dual action gravity feed, since I don't plan to use it often.

For the large aera/terrain airbrush, I'm thinking about a single action, succion feed badger 250 : the pattern can be pretty wide (50mm), but also thinner (19mm) wich can be great for detailing, the mix is external and (correct me if I'm wrong) needle less, so it should be able to deal with (diluted) study grade artist paint I'm using for my scenery. Probably easier and (more important!) faster to maintain.
http://www.badgerairbrush.com/Badger_350.asp


edit : according to this video :



the badger 250 seems to offer a spray just perfectly wide for my scenery purposes, don't you think ?


edit2: maybe a 350 would be more multipurpose :

http://www.badgerairbrush.com/Badger_350.asp



Most of the scenery I'm doing is almost never bigger than 30cm/1 foot wide, I don't do gaming mats often, so I'm wondering if the HVLP gun would be a bit oversized for my needs. What do you think of my idea ?


thank you !


edit : here's some pics.




On the 2nd pic, you can see the useless fireplace where I'll put the compressor. Bricks and mortar fireplace, covered with 1" thick marble. I'll add some kind of inner "box" for best noise result. The compressor will take its air from the fireplace vent on the back, wich is still functional.




Later I'll post pics of the entire workshop  

[Connectamabob]

There's actually two things at work here: spray pattern and paint volume. In the vid for the Badger 250, you'll notice the spray pattern is wide, but the base still shows through a lot. Low paint volume means you'll be going over the same spot repeatedly in order to get full, opaque coverage. With an AB, max paint volume is largely dictated by needle/tip size: the larger the needle/tip, the more paint it'll move when fully opened.

BTW that stuff in the vid about droplet size is a little weird and a red flag if accurate. You don't want larger droplets, and on a properly designed brush you shouldn't get them by increasing the paint flow. That would if anything be a sign of insufficiant thinning or too low air pressure. That's not how an AB is supposed to work, that's just bad atomization.

HPLV is generally for things like painting (real, not model) cars and walls and such. You're be right that it's mostly way overkill for terrain. A regular airbrush will do you perfectly for blending and shading and such on a large terrain board, but to get a solid coat over the whole thing (like for primer or a base color), you're want something bigger, because the airbrush won't spray enough paint volume to do that economically even with a wide spray pattern. That's why I was using those specific Grex and Iwata models as examples: from the specs and descriptions, they seem to be built for exactly the sort of work you're looking at: where you're want the ability to cover areas that are too big for a regular AB, but too small to justify an HPLV gun, while at the same time retaining the ability to do the smaller regular AB stuff an HPLV flat out couldn't. The sort of AB one might use for stuff like this.

However that recommendation was based on your initial quote of big gaming boards and the like. For 30cm/1ft stuff like you say would be normal, a regular AB would be fine. If you're not doing big stuff that often, it's probably more cost effective to do your solid coats with a regular fiber brush, and save the spraying for accents and shading and such (which a normal AB would be fine for, though you might still want a large color cup option for stuff like that).

In regards ease of maintenance, there isn't actually much difference between an external and internal mix brush. When I was first getting into ABing years ago, I actually did the same thing you're looking at doing: bought an external mix brush with a large tip specifically for doing big solid coats, because I found my regular AB (a Paasche VL) to much of a pain to clean.

Turned out not to make a difference. Either way, you're doing operations of more or less the same complexity for basic cleaning. The quality of the machining and plating makes a HUGE difference. And a gravity feed in turn is much easier to clean than bottom or side, simply because it's a more unified design in general.

If better machining and plating is off the table due to budget, I'd recommend a gravity feed over an external mix to someone wanting ease of maintenance.

I didn't get a brush that was as easy to maintain as I wanted until I got my Iwata HP-CS. Although internal mix, it's architecture VERY simple, and the machining and plating is nigh glass smooth where it counts. It's well regarded as a beginner brush for very, very good reasons.

My only Badger tool is a SOTAR airbrush, which is their high-end detail brush, and if its construction is reflective of the upper end of Badger's standards, I don't think I'd recommend Badger to someone who prioritizes ease of maintenance. Their machining and plating is... kind of Kalashnikov-like. High tolerances in very specific places to give good performance, but otherwise rather "dirty". It paints very well, but it's not nearly as rugged or easy to keep clean as my Iwata.

All of that said, the Badger 350 is probably your best option if you're married to that super, SUPER low price range, if only because Badger's service department has an outstanding reputation in case anything goes wrong. And, yes, the design does look more multipurpose (and with better airflow control, will probably give better results) than the 250. The 250 sorta looks like it'd probably only be like a glorified refillable rattlecan.

[sundayhero]

Again, thank you a lot for this very detailed answer. Really !

I didn't know that I could buy a "real" Iwata (not a neo) for less than 100euros  (on amazon I saw it for 80euros shipped) It seems that it can also go from hairline to a thick 2" spray, wich is almost the max wide spray size I'm looking for.

I was planning to buy a badger 350 with the 3 nozzles set, and maybe a chinese gravity airbrush for fine detail (or figures/small scale armour and scenery). But finally, the price would be barely the same than the Iwata...

Is it possible to buy a bigger needle (or whatever is the real name) for the Iwata, allowing an even bigger spray than the stock 50mm/2" ?

thanks


edit :   the iwata on amazon is a direct import from Japan. As a professionnal, it's simplier for me to order my tools and materials here in france, or at least Europe. I'll see if I can find a similar price locally, but I doubt it will be possible.

edit2 :  what about the badger patriot ?
http://www.badgerairbrush.com/Patriot_105.asp

It seems to be similar (in the way it works ) to the Iwata, it still a great Brand behind it with reknown customers support, and the price is lower than the Iwata, locally. Last feature : it can spray up to 76mm wide spray (probably because the 0.5mm needle), wich is perfect for my needs.

[Connectamabob]

Yes, you can get a larger set for the HP-CS. The needles and tips used by most of the Eclipse series are interchangeable, and the HP-BCS needle/tip combo is .5. I have that set for mine, but I don't use it much.

Are there large import/customs fees for buying stuff internationally if you're in France? If so, is it different for stuff coming from inside the EU, or is it for all international shipping? Best of the French  was this, though I'm not familiar with French vendors, so there may be others.

The Badger brush model that gets the most love as a good all-'rounder beginner brush (apparently somewhat tied with HP-CS, though I've no experience with it myself) is the Renegade Krome. It's twice the cost of the patriot though. Also twice the cost of the HP-CS now: wow, I had no idea the price on that had dropped so far in the last year, but it's only 80$ on the US version of amazon now too! This time last year it was around 120$.

I don't have any experience with the Patriot. From reading around, it looks like it's a decent brush. Parts wear out fast apparently, but are cheap to replace. Iwata parts are expensive, but very durable: pretty much everything but the valve can apparently last a lifetime.

[sundayhero]

thank you,

Yes importing something from Japan will cost at least 40euros more than the price, including VAT and (especially) paperwork taxes. Not speaking of the extra paperwork I'll have to make if I want to buy it on my business account...That's why buying stuff locally, or at least in Europe make things easier.

I searched a while, and never found any Iwata cheaper than 125-130euros (not including shipping). Thinking that I will need an hose, support, and other extra accessories, make the whole stuff out of budget for now.

I often think that first idea is the best, I'll go for a badger 350 with medium nozzle (up to 63mm spray width). Reviews on both product and brand are good, parts are easily available, the brush itself is cheap (I found it for 30euros shipped with an extra jar), and apparently, good to spray thick paints (wich is perfect for my needs). The fact I can prepare jars by advance for most common colors (raw umber, dark grey, etc...) is also a factor I like.

The other important thing for now, is how to quickly integrate this new tool in my workflow : some kind of "on off" single action airbrush will be easier to operate eficiently than having to learn how to work with a complex dual action brush.


Later I'll see to buy extra nozzles, or simply go for a "pro" dual action japanese stuff.  


edit : wait a minute, on the link you gave there is a lot of discount of badger complete (with hose and all) sets...I'll see if another one would be a better choice than the badger 350, according to the fact I will have to buy the hose for it, and extra heads and jars... edit2 : especially the 80euros badger 150, with medium needle (63mm max spray widht). Sounds perfect and complet set.

I also saw some paasche H single action sets complete with multiple jars and hoses for about the same price. I'm currently reading and watching reviews/uses. The H paasche seems to give a good amount of paint :

[Connectamabob]

I did some more digging around after my last post, and it looks like the Patriot 105 is actually a pretty versatile brush. Several sources cited the larger nozzle/needle sizes as being very good for broad coverage.

Comparing it to stuff on the 150, the Patriot wins in terms of easier cleaning, both in terms of being a gravity fed brush, and also the nozzle is better designed for easy break down and reassembly. However the 150's advantage for you is the large paint reservoir enabled by being bottom fed.

The 150 does look like maybe the better balance in your price range in terms of capability/adaptability for what you're anticipation using it for. Not as simple to clean as the Patriot (or the HP-CS), but it has a similar if not better range of tip/needles to the patriot, and it'll give you the color cup size flexibility to do big stuff comfortably. Aside from it's higher cleaning/maintenance complexity, it's only relative downside (to the patriot) is that being a bottom feed, it won't operate at low pressure, and low pressure can be advantageous for painting minis. But since you're thinking more for terrain than minis, that works out.

It'll definitely give you a lot more options than the 350.

Bear in mind I'm going only by the specs and third party reviews though. I have no personal experience with either model.

[sundayhero]

Thank you for the help,

I'd say that I have about 80-100euros for a complete set (including hose, heads/needles and shipping) wich should allow me to do all the work I plan to do with an airbrush. That's not a lot of money, but you can imagine that it's not the only one expense I have these days.

For me in this price range,  the 150 seems to be the best candidate, followed by the Paasche H (available in all in one sets including all size heads and cups, high quality hose, the H "workhorse" reputation) and finally the 350 badger (cheapest entry). I will make my choice this week end, no rush since no one online store will ship my order on saturday or sunday.

The only thing I'm sure now, is that I definitly prefer to buy a recognized brand, simple and effective airbrush. For now the candidates are the paasche H, paasche VL, badger 350 and Badger 150.

[Connectamabob]

I recommend against Paasche, personally. Paasches were my first airbrushes, and they almost put me off from airbrushing for a long time.

I have both a VL and an H, and IMO both are both a pain to clean, and low-performance. Both have pretty terrible atomization. The paint droplets they make are big, and their spray patterns are "fuzzy" with lots of overspray.

They also use crap metal for their needles, so they get damaged if you so much as breath on them wrong. This creates a great deal of unnecessary anxiety both when cleaning and when buying replacements (it would be very easy for them to get damaged during normal factory packaging).

Before I got my Iwata, I tried to buy a Talon, and I had to return it twice to do multiple appalling manufacturing defects. Bad body welds with gaps and spatter, incomplete plating that left bare spots on the body, parts already damaged or verdigris-encrusted right out of the box.

I don't really have any confidence in Paasche these days, and could not in good conscience recommend them. Quality-wise they are IMO only on par with the Chinese cheapies, and their reputation is basically a holdover from the 80's (when they actually were one of the best), combined with people who either don't know better, or have very specific and limited needs. T-shirt artists like the VL, but IMO that's because it's a cheap gun optimized for high pressure work, and if you've ever seen T-Shirt art, you know it has VERY lax standards for spray quality.

[sundayhero]

Hi Bob,

Thank you for your help, what I can say is that you give me a cut opinion for sure  I was almost sure to choose Paasche instead of Badger for my airbrush choice, and probably I was thinking to go for the H version.

 Now I'm confused again  Going back on Google for new searching 

thanks

[sundayhero]

Hi,

here's the last 3 airbrushes I selected :

iwata eclipse BCS http://www.iwata-medea.com/products/iwata-airbrushes/eclipse/hp-bcs/

Badger Patriot 105 http://www.badgerairbrush.com/Patriot_105.asp (same price than the iwata)



The main purpose is scenery painting, but I would not be against fine detailling too, and I would like to do all the stuff with the same brush, without changing anything on it (wich disqualified paasche VL and badger 150).

The patriot is gravitiy feed, so main advantage (if I understand correctly) is lower pressure needed (I don't know why it's good...Because my 24L compressor will start less often?). It's easy to maintain, use and clean, and capable of relatively thin detail (0.5mm needle) and broad painting too (official website says 76mm wich seems huge and great for my needs).

THe Iwata is bottom feed, same needle size, and that's pretty much all I know for now. I guess the bottom feed main advantage is to have more paint available. I will search for infos tonight (during the day I'm too busy for this).


edit : after reading stuff about the BCS eclipse, it seems that all advantages you described about the CS are there too (versatile, capable of large coats and details, easy to maintain and use), plus the 0.5 needle and bottle feed probably allowing more bigger work. The only thing annoying me is the long bottles, I didn't find (yet) the usual metal detail cup available for other bottom feed airbrushes, like the badger 150. This kind of extra detail cup seems really interesting to paint small details, small scale scenery, armour, or even miniatures...

[Connectamabob]

I believe there's a small bottle/cup available for the BCS. Just a matter of finding a French or France-import friendly vendor.

I take it you found a vendor for the BCS, if you're considering it an option now?

There are two advantages to lower pressures:
1) Fine line detail can be easier to spray at low pressure. Something to do with the fluid dynamics. I'm afraid I don't know the physics myself.
2) When painting small parts up close, "normal" pressures (20psi and above) actually exert a lot of force. You can blow a small part right out of your hand and and across the table if you're not holding onto it hard (which limits how you can hold it, making painting awkward). This also makes some alternative holding solutions awkward, as it can blow a small part of a tape-based holder, or make a clip-onna-stick type holder wobble and deflect around like a reed in the wind as you're trying to paint. If you haven't mastered your thinning ratios and such yet, you can also end up pushing wet paint around, creating drips and miniscuses. Low pressure is much more forgiving when you're working really close.

Another option, if you have a vendor (sorry if I'm muddying the waters by introducing new options at this point), is the HP-SBS.

Side feeds are a halfway point between gravity and bottom feed. You can put a big hanging bottle on there like a bottom feed, or you can put a smaller, higher-sitting cup that will allow it to operate as a gravity feed (allowing for low pressures). It also allows you to paint at extreme vertical angles (like if you wanted to paint a floor or ceiling) because you can rotate the cup's up/down orientation relative to the brush. Tradeoff is it adds a little more complexity to cleaning, and the brush's balance is off center in your hand. The HP-SBS can use the same needle/tip options as the other Eclipses, and can actually use the plastic color cups from the Testors Aztek as well as the Iwata cups/bottles, which gives you a lot of options. If you want a single "does everything" brush, that will fit the bill... at the cost of a slight increase in cleaning time relative to a bottom feed.

One other thing: you don't strictly need a small needle/tip to do fine lines. Small needles/tips make line width much easier to control freehand, but a big needle/tip can still make hair fine lines that look as good as those done by a big tip/needle.