Book-faithful Uruk-hai and half-orc miniatures?

[Hobgoblin]

I like those drawings: those orcs work perfectly well within the textual descriptions.

Vermis: the "Tolkien-compatability" of GW orcs is interesting, I think. A lot of the early Perry goblins would make rather good LotR orcs, as would the Lone Wolf giaks. The Fantasy Tribe orcs (though marvellous) are probably too tall, but then there are later Perry orcs - from the time of Orc's Drift - that fit quite well as uruks: long arms, shorter than humans and in some cases, armed with bows as well as melee weapons. The Lord of the Rings range from around the same time were also pretty good - especially the "Orcs of the Red Eye" and the warg rider. The three Uruk-hai were nice too, though they were very much Mordor uruks rather than Isengard ones. The "Orcs of the White Hand" were nice Citadel orcs, and had long bows, but had scimitars rather than "short, broad-bladed swords, alas ...". The three "Snaga" were good, I remember.

Most of all, the Perry "goblins" were often facially similar to their "orcs", so you could assemble a continuum of orcish creatures of different sizes, rather than the subsequent divide between long-nosed goblins and snub-nosed orcs. It was at that point, under Kev Adams, that Citadel orcs began to get much bigger and taller and more comic: great in their way, but much less Tolkien-appropriate.

[Arthadan]

Hobgoblin & Gangleri:

I'm writing a series of article about miniatures best fitting Tolkien descriptions for Other Minds magazine and Id like to ask your permisson to use what you have said about orcs (and Gangleri's drawing) in this thread, when I get to write about orcs.

Please PM me with the answer and how you want to appear in the credits if you agree.

[Emir of Askaristan]

Great discussion guys - fantasy isn't my gaming thing any more, but this is really interesting and I will always have a love of Tolkien's work which coupled with a love of history was the reason I got involved in gaming to begin with.

The terms Goblin and Orc are interchangeable in Tolkien, hobgoblin being used to describe larger Orc/Goblins.

Orcs were bred, not created, since Melkor/Morgoth didn't have the power to create life, only to pervert it. If Orcs were bred from Elves Then they may have initially been taller, but being evil are somewhat twisted and mis-shapen. Given the bullying nature of their society bigger orcs would have more status, whilst smaller ones would have had more subservient roles to play - such as trackers and spies rather that true warriors.

Man-orcs and Orc-men are probably the same thing, with the more mannish of them being sent to live and spy on humans - alternatively it could be a derogatory term for a lesser mortal who has the features, behaviour and attitude of an orc....just think about some of the names people have called other nationalities and ethnic groups in history!! Also if orcs could be bred from elves then they could be bred from humans too....

Lastly isn't "Uruk" the orkish word for simply "orc" with "hai" meaning people? Various heroes describe these as being bigger and more man like than normal Orcs, but the Uruk-hai still clearly identified themselves as Orcs.

[Hobgoblin]

Great discussion guys - fantasy isn't my gaming thing any more, but this is really interesting and I will always have a love of Tolkien's work which coupled with a love of history was the reason I got involved in gaming to begin with.

The terms Goblin and Orc are interchangeable in Tolkien, hobgoblin being used to describe larger Orc/Goblins.

That's right - the only caveat is that Tolkien abandoned "hobgoblin" after The Hobbit, because he realised that, etymologically, it referred to smaller goblins (an interesting example of the etymological fallacy, as "hobgoblin" had come to men a terrifying monster by Bunyan's time. But then, Tolkien's project had its roots in the early meanings of words.). Effectively, "uruks" replaced "hobgoblins" by the time of LotR.

Orcs were bred, not created, since Melkor/Morgoth didn't have the power to create life, only to pervert it. If Orcs were bred from Elves Then they may have initially been taller, but being evil are somewhat twisted and mis-shapen. Given the bullying nature of their society bigger orcs would have more status, whilst smaller ones would have had more subservient roles to play - such as trackers and spies rather that true warriors.

The "bred from Elves" thing certainly doesn't sit easily with the diminutive stature of Orcs in the books (unless shrinkage was part of the "corruption" process). But your "If ..." is spot on. I don't think Tolkien ever really made up his mind what Orcs were; the issue presented difficult theological issues for him, which he struggled to resolve.

Man-orcs and Orc-men are probably the same thing, with the more mannish of them being sent to live and spy on humans - alternatively it could be a derogatory term for a lesser mortal who has the features, behaviour and attitude of an orc....just think about some of the names people have called other nationalities and ethnic groups in history!! Also if orcs could be bred from elves then they could be bred from humans too....

I think Tolkien does distinguish between the two in Morgoth's Ring. Here's the quote (bold emphasis mine):

"It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the dominion of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning.  There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning and Orc-men treacherous and vile."

The both tells us that there are two types. And I think the "large" tells us that these Men-Orcs are primarily Orcs (as Orcs are small creatures, being large for an Orc is noteworthy). No doubt the Orc-men are larger, but as they are primarily Men, it's not a noteworthy feature. That interpretation fits nicely with the other texts, which tell us that Saruman has large Orcs that use Mannish equipment (and don't mind the sun at all) and horrible men with faces like those of Orcs.

Lastly isn't "Uruk" the orkish word for simply "orc" with "hai" meaning people? Various heroes describe these as being bigger and more man like than normal Orcs, but the Uruk-hai still clearly identified themselves as Orcs.

Yes: Tolkien tells us in LotR that uruk is just the Black Speech for Orc, but says that it was applied "as a rule" to the great soldier-orcs of Isengard and Mordor. And -hai just seems to mean "folk" or some such. But that doesn't preclude Saruman's having tampered with the genetic make-up of his big goblins. His great uruks do seem to be somewhat different from the uruks of Mordor, but they are both clearly Orcs. But then that's what the Morgoth's Ring quote suggests: that Morgoth made bigger Orcs by crossbreeding his original strains with Men. The half-orcs seem to be a useful by-product.

[Cubs]

Doesn't it say in the Silmarillion that Orcs were twisted forms of Elves (just as Trolls were twisted forms of Ents)? If they're bent and stooped, with bow legs, that would also account for them being shorter in height.

Man-height is also quite a broad category, with the different races of men being surprisingly different heights, especially the Dunedain.

[Hobgoblin]

It says in the published Silmarillion that it was reported that Elves were "by slow arts of cruelty corrupted and depraved" into Orcs by Morgoth. But JRRT didn't publish that himself, of course, and it wasn't his final thought on the matter. He evidently agonised over what Orcs were and whether they could be redeemed. He thought at various stages that they might be beasts, "robots", made from stone, made from Elves and made from humans. There's some info on that here (section 14 on):

http://tolkien.slimy.com/faq/TolkNgFaq.txt

The thing about height is that we know that some Orcs were similar in size to a Hobbit and all were significantly shorter than Men: enough for it to make a real difference in combat (Helm's Deep, The Battle of the Fords of the Isen) and enough for man-height beings with Orcish faces to be immediately distinguishable from Orcs.

[Hobgoblin]

Oh, and we also have Gollum's statement that the Haradrim are "much bigger" than Orcs. That's pretty conclusive, given that Gollum had had ample exposure to Orcs of all shapes and sizes. 

One thing on Trolls: they weren't twisted forms of Ents, but perhaps made "in mockery" (i.e. imitation) of Ents. There's nothing in Tolkien's writings that suggests Ents were turned into trolls (and a lot that suggests that trolls were made out of stone).

[Cubs]

Ah, fair enough.

[Emir of Askaristan]

One thing on Trolls: they weren't twisted forms of Ents, but perhaps made "in mockery" (i.e. imitation) of Ents. There's nothing in Tolkien's writings that suggests Ents were turned into trolls (and a lot that suggests that trolls were made out of stone).

Trolls.....now that's the next topic 

[Vermis]

I may be misremembering, but in Tolkien's earliest M-E writings, were the elves much more like the - for want of a better term - pre-Tolkien conception of elves, or the Nordic idea of elves/dwarves, as a diminutive folk? Becoming 'human+' beings later. If the idea of Orcs twisted and bred from elves is an old, unresolved idea, perhaps something similar can be said of their stature.

Trolls.....now that's the next topic 

What's the difference between cave, stone, hill and mountain trolls?

[Elbows]

Might I suggest a box of Wargames Factory orcs...if only for parts?  Might be useful to kitbash with some other plastic set and get what you're aiming for.





Cheap as chips and maybe a good source for heads and arms...and the hands are all empty so more traditional weapons could be used.  I think it may be useful if you end up concocting some.

[Arthadan]

i think the trick jere is that size and height are not the same. If you try to walk as bow-legged as you can you will seem shorter, plus you can't keep your back straight while walking (let alone running) like that.

Just remember Moria orcs in the films. They seemed very short when compared with Aragorn and Boromir, but they were normal sized people. Check out this short animation on Devianart: http://ivanix.deviantart.com/art/Walking-like-an-Orc-27972403

[orc]

Great Topic Here Hobgoblin  I'm very interested...because like you,I'm working on different orc warbands:

Misty Mountains (orcs and black uruks)
Mordor (orcs and black uruks)
Isengard (orcs, uruk hai, and half-orcs)

I choose Mithril miniatures to my project because in my opinnion they are the most near to the books...but I'm doing some conversions using wargames factory orcs parts, to be near Angus Mcbride style ! 

Any idea about the skin color to use with them?are the black uruks skin color, differents from the uru-hai?

[Erny]

I think Tolkien does distinguish between the two in Morgoth's Ring. Here's the quote (bold emphasis mine):

"It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the dominion of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning.  There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning and Orc-men treacherous and vile."

The both tells us that there are two types. And I think the "large" tells us that these Men-Orcs are primarily Orcs (as Orcs are small creatures, being large for an Orc is noteworthy). No doubt the Orc-men are larger, but as they are primarily Men, it's not a noteworthy feature. That interpretation fits nicely with the other texts, which tell us that Saruman has large Orcs that use Mannish equipment (and don't mind the sun at all) and horrible men with faces like those of Orcs.

I've always thought of this a bit like animal cross breeding. A liger has a lion father and a tiger mother, a tigon a tiger father and lion mother. A Man orc is thus the product of a Man and Orcish mother, an Orc man that of an Orc and a woman.  Given the age Tolkien grew up in and his experiance in WWI one would assuem that mules and to a lesser degree hinnys were part of his everyday world.

[Hobgoblin]

Great Topic Here Hobgoblin  I'm very interested...because like you,I'm working on different orc warbands:

Misty Mountains (orcs and black uruks)
Mordor (orcs and black uruks)
Isengard (orcs, uruk hai, and half-orcs)

I choose Mithril miniatures to my project because in my opinnion they are the most near to the books...but I'm doing some conversions using wargames factory orcs parts, to be near Angus Mcbride style ! 

Any idea about the skin color to use with them?are the black uruks skin color, differents from the uru-hai?

I think RPGs, war-games and general fandom have tended to introduce sharper distinctions between different types of orcs than Tolkien himself indicates. One thing that's worth noting is that the Uruk-hai are orcs. They're also goblins. Gamers tend to distinguish between "orcs" and "Uruks", but Tolkien tends to describe the Uruks of Mordor and Isengard simply as "orcs" (or "goblins").

It's clear that there are meant to be lots of different breeds of orc; the tracker in Mordor seems to be specially bred for the role, and Faramir's men think that Gollum could be some peculiar sort of orc. But the main distinction seems to be between big goblin-soldiers (Uruks) and smaller orcs ("Snaga"). Both (or all) types are generally referred to in the narrative as "goblins" or, more commonly, "orcs".

I don't think Tolkien ever talks about "orc and Uruks" (happy to be corrected, though!); it's a distinction that he simply doesn't make. I'd hazard a guess that most of the orcs that we "see" when we read LotR are actually Uruks - some of those in Moria, Grishnakh's party and Ugluk's troop, for example. The natural inference from the text is that all of Saruman's orcs are Uruks, and that very many of the armies of Mordor are. As an example, throughout the Helm's Deep account, the orcish soldiers of Isengard are described as "orcs" but call themselves the Uruk-hai.

I think we also get an indication that "Uruk-hai" can refer to orcs of Mordor too. The tracker-orc, when discussing events at Cirith Ungol, describes reports of a "pack of rebel Urukhai". Now, we know that "the filthy rebel Gorbag" was an Uruk, and presumably at least some of his followers were too. Given that the tracker's rumours are fairly close to what Shagrat must have reported ("a sort of small dwarf-man", "an elf-warrior"), I think we can safely infer that "Uruk-hai" means "big orc-soldiers" in Mordor as well as Isengard.

Skin colours? Tolkien explicitly describes the small tracker-orc as "black-skinned". That would indicated that his Uruk companion wasn't. The Uruks in Moria are "black", Mordor Uruks are described as "black orcs of great strength", and Ugluk is a "large, black orc". Both the Moria chieftain and Uguluk's Uruk-hai are described as "swart". But that doesn't mean that they were black-skinned like the tracker. Tolkien, after all, is drawing on a literary tradition in which people with dark hair and countenance were described as "black". So it's quite possible that Ugluk was "black" in the sense of having black hair, black eyes and a black beard.

There's some support for that elsewhere. Tolkien, in a letter, says that the orcs were "squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes; in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types". That may not read particularly well to contemporary sensibilities; I think, though, he clearly had the Huns (ancient foes of the Goths, to whom the Rohirrim have many resemblances) and the Mongols in mind. Both were described by Western contemporaries in fairly monstrous terms. "Mongol" coloration would suggest black hair, eyes and beard.

There's also the point that orcs have to look sufficiently human for Bill Ferny's friend (who probably does have Orcish blood) to look "more than half like a goblin" and the leader of the ruffians in the Shire to look "like a huge orc". The half-orcs marching out of Isengard are identified as "horrible" Men: "man-high but with goblin faces: sallow, leering, squint-eyed". Given that they're marching with the Uruk-hai, to whom they're presumably related, one would think that there should be a skin-colour continuum between the Uruks, the Orc-men and the Men of Dunland - ranging from "swart" and "sallow" to some fairly light complexion for the Hillmen (though they, of course, are "dark", given their hair and eye colours).

Obviously, though, there's no compelling reason why miniatures should match the book descriptions when it comes to details like skin colour and eye colour. Think of illustrations for Tolkien: among my favourite are Ian Miller's wonderful battle scenes. I think there's no suggestion that the armies of Isengard were actually like that in Tolkien's mind's eye - but that's not really the point!