Double Blind Wargaming.

[Pizzagrenadier]

Howdy,

I updated the blog about double blind wargaming and our game club's solution for running those kinds of games. I highly recommend double blind if you can do it. It's an incredible way to game and really ramps up the tension and realism in a game.

The explanation and process is on the blog:

http://thisveryblog.blogspot.com/2015/04/double-blind-gaming.html

I built this contraption to aid us in running double blind games. We will be trying it out tonight and I'll report back later with the results.













Hope you enjoy!

Have any of you ever double blind wargamed? How did it go? What devices did you use?

[Golgotha]

This looks really fantastic I am sure von Clausewitz would be pleased to see such friction or fog of war - eagerly await hearing more about this. I do recall my brother many years back trying similar as I recall he used matchboxes.

[Vermis]

Ooh. Shiny.

Still a wee bit confused about just how it works, though. Do you place and move the markers secretly, as the example of reconnaissance suggests, or is it more a matter of the nature of the unit being secret?
If the former, how do you do that without a GM keeping an eye on things? How do you move from F7 to E8 without your opponent noticing? If he has to look away, what's stopping you taking a sneaky peek to look for his markers? Outside of the in-game reconnaissance, that is.
If the latter, does it matter what exactly the unit represents and how that's determined, or is it just a 'phantom' unit in both minds until minis need to appear?

Is reconnaissance actually represented on the tabletop, or in your army roster? From what I can see, deployment, reconnaissance and barrage all take place before any minis go on the table - right? I.e. "The barrage marked for the enemy player to discover when he deploys." You mean when he deploys his minis, because he's already deployed his marker in box C6?
How do you resolve that with unit movement between blind boxes? If he decides to move his unit marker from C6, and discovers the barrage marker in there with it, does he have to deploy that unit's minis there and then? Is that because it's been spotted, because it's received a barrage, or both?

I'm giving myself a headache; but only because I like the idea a lot, while being almost completely clueless.  

[warlord frod]

I used to play a number of double blind games back in the day. Board games like Operation Market-garden and 8th Army: Operation Crusader were two of my favorite. The match box set up is one first mentioned by the late great Donald Featherstone I believe and one I have used in the past. I have also played with maps and counters to maneuver forces and used blank markers to add the fog of war ( All markers on the board were face down and some were blank. Each player moved there forces and when they came into contact or visual range the counters were exposed. Then if both counters represented forces we set up the table. Also have read of a game where the commanders of the forces were in separate rooms and had to receive info about force location and status from messengers. The commanders then sent orders back to be carried out by the players at the table. (A much more elaborate double blind simulation that required a GM and one I have always wanted to try). I agree however that the double blind game is far more intense and enjoyable. I have not done it for a long time so this kind of gets me thinking I should try to convince a friend of mine to try a game or two.    

[Pizzagrenadier]

Ooh. Shiny.

Still a wee bit confused about just how it works, though. Do you place and move the markers secretly, as the example of reconnaissance suggests, or is it more a matter of the nature of the unit being secret?
If the former, how do you do that without a GM keeping an eye on things? How do you move from F7 to E8 without your opponent noticing? If he has to look away, what's stopping you taking a sneaky peek to look for his markers? Outside of the in-game reconnaissance, that is.
If the latter, does it matter what exactly the unit represents and how that's determined, or is it just a 'phantom' unit in both minds until minis need to appear?

Is reconnaissance actually represented on the tabletop, or in your army roster? From what I can see, deployment, reconnaissance and barrage all take place before any minis go on the table - right? I.e. "The barrage marked for the enemy player to discover when he deploys." You mean when he deploys his minis, because he's already deployed his marker in box C6?
How do you resolve that with unit movement between blind boxes? If he decides to move his unit marker from C6, and discovers the barrage marker in there with it, does he have to deploy that unit's minis there and then? Is that because it's been spotted, because it's received a barrage, or both?

I'm giving myself a headache; but only because I like the idea a lot, while being almost completely clueless.  

Hello,

To help explain it a bit:

You place markers in the boxes secretly. Everyone records their units on their own paper map just to keep track of things (which is a little bit of a pain, but actually works pretty well because it allowed you to take notes as well on enemy movement and activity). You just have to look away when the other player is using the boxes. I guess there's nothing stopping a player from taking a peek. You just need to play with friends or honest people (I have the luxury of playing in a club of all good friends). You could use a GM and each player passes a note to the GM and he moves the tokens in the boxes. I guess that would help avoid the problem of sneaky players.

The token corresponds to an actual model or unit. I use numbered counters for mine. In the case of riflemen for WWII, I just use a blank counter and place whatever rifle model on the table when he appears. For MG teams and squad leaders I use the numbered counters and just keep track of what number is what model or unit on the map. You can add an element of surprise to the game by making spotting units prone to misidentity or incomplete information. For example, when a player opens a box and reveals an enemy counter, you could roll to see if he accurately identifies it. If not, the unit stays a counter in the open box (or place the counter on the table). When it is identified the actual models are placed on the table. If for example the unit revealed is an enemy vehicle and it is misidentified, you could place the wrong vehicle on the table (the famous "Every German tank is a Tiger" scenario comes to mind). There's lots of room for tinkering with things like this.

Reconnaissance we allow as part of a players actions. It can take place pre-game if players opt to or it is allowed by the scenario. But we also allow it as part of a units actions. For example, in our game we played two Soviet squads (1 player each) against a defending SS unit in a Russian farmhouse (1 player). We played a squad level rules set (DH:Point Blank) that does individual activations. Part of the allowed actions for a model activation is to try to spot a map grid if the spotting model is in LOS. If successful, you get to open that box. There was a road running down the middle of the table in our game, so we kept those boxes open and anything that crossed through or into it was automatically spotted. Because it was based on LOS, this meant open areas were easy to spot, but it also made covered approaches out of LOS tactically important (as they are in real life!). You can't spot what you can't see! It worked really well in that open areas were easy to be spotted in, but out of LOS zones were perfect avenues of approach.

For barrages, you can do it two ways. One is to have the one player deploy his units into the boxes as normal, then the other player chooses the boxes he wants to hit with artillery and then open them. If he finds a unit, roll for effect on it and the unit is revealed. The other way, which makes it a little more secret (and realistic!) is to have the player put red markers for a barrage into the boxes he wants to target before the game, then the opposing player marks on his map his own deployment and when he goes to place one of his units in a box and he finds a barrage, that unit is hit by the artillery, but the results are kept secret...so the player firing the barrage won't know exactly what happened, only that his artillery landed in that square. Sort of like a real assault after a barrage...you don't always discover the effect until it is observed afterward or your own infantry goes in and finds out! Again however, you have to have honest players. You can deploy mines this way as well.

We ruled that units that fire are revealed, though you could also force a player that is fired on to roll to spot the shooter as well. Some info will be given away though depending on the weapon simply by the amount of dice being thrown or the effect, which is also realistic!

We restricted movement to one square per activation while hidden in the boxes, but reverted to normal movement rules for the systen we used once the models were on the table. It worked without any issues.

It all worked pretty damn well I must say, and I tip my hat to Featherstone, who, as mentioned, pioneered the idea all those years ago. I just made a fancy rig for it and added my own twists to the concept.

Once you have the rig built, it really opens up a ton of opportunities for all kinds of elements to be represented. It's a lot of fun!

I used Microsoft Word to draw 1.25" boxes for my labels on the boxes and to draw a map that I can print out to fill in for each game.

Hope that helps!

[Vermis]

Thanks for taking the time to indulge my badgering. Also, sorry if there was an impression that I was accusing all if you of being untrustworthy players! Not how I intended to come across.

[Pizzagrenadier]

Thanks for taking the time to indulge my badgering. Also, sorry if there was an impression that I was accusing all if you of being untrustworthy players! Not how I intended to come across.

No problem! Glad I could help.

I didn't take it as you accusing of dishonest play. No worries about that. It's a legitimate question

[Silent Invader]

Very interesting - I'm certainly intrigued by the possibilities for start of game artillery barrages.  Thanks for posting.