Review of 4Grounds North European Church

[Drachenklinge]

But a/ they are ludicrously expensive and b/ they look SH*T!!!!

Sorry, I cannot get my head around how or why they are so popular... It really makes me despair.

As you say, they look just like the old wooden jigsaws. No surface texture or relief, no 3D depth to parapets etc, all the finishes far too uniform and brightly coloured, and all those hideous joints. Godawful

Hi Captain,
I cannot agree with You here - or misunderstood You. Have seen quite a share of buildings over the last 15 years of my tabletop life, build some myself too, bought others.

It really boils down to the following, when building houses (or terrain in general)
- what time do You have yourself
- what skill (and interest) do you have
- whar are you willing to pay for

Some companies have got interesting buildings, some prepainted, but far from the shown examples, and also expensive. Other MDFs you have to stick together yourself too, but still they came unpainted. Others have a far to small a range (yet), so either no variety or a break in style due to using different companies.

I think that 4ground do have a very interesting range and a good quality (as said, seen them in real). Though I am usually more the type of making terrain on my own they do really tempt me.
What time and skill ressources do I need to build these houses in that quality myself? I think considerably so.

How much time do people have to play and do they want cut time even from this for making terrain? Some want to play soon, no time for making terrain ... so why not?
I agree that no company with factory-made terrain will ever match a good hand-made terrain, but these are quite a good start and with a higher level than most.

So, for those with restrictions to time, skill*, but less in terms of money ... this is a good deal and a good start.
I know, it is a point of view and gusto, but sometimes it is important to consider who a company is aiming at. And IMO who they are aiming at, the really can use it.

best wishes
DK

* yes, skill do come with practise, too, but still that needs even more time ...

[Captain Blood]

Hi Captain,
I cannot agree with You here

That's okay Thomas - let's disagree

I understand that people make trade-offs between the time, money and skills they have, against the need to put scenery on the table-top. I am not against people buying ready-made scenery that they don't have the time, willpower or ability to make or paint themselves

But for me, the test is simply: does the end product look good? And that's where it seems we have to disagree.
To you (and clearly to lots of other wargamers), these printed, jigsaw-style buildings are perfectly acceptable representations of 'real'-looking' buildings in miniature.
To me, that is emphatically not the case. To my eye, they look wrong in all sorts of ways. The lack of surface texture, the obvious joints, and the  limitations of what planes can and can't be represented mean they are nowhere near as good as resin buildings or plastic kits - and yet they are a lot more work to put together, and cost a lot more money to buy.

It makes no sense to me, but ultimately, like most things in wargaming and modelling it's just a question of aesthetic preference. We all see these things differently and like different things.

[Porthius]

Eric the Shed and Captain Blood:

I agree..................... to disagree.

I am glad my review provoked the discussion and it's been really interesting reading your opinions but as Captain Blood said it comes down to aesthetics and I really like my church so I suppose that's all that matters.

Apparently the church sold very well at Salute and the long que at the 4Ground till suggests that their stuff is very popular. Looks like  laser cut MDF is here to stay until the next big thing in pre-painted buildings/terrain is invented (3D printing?).

[Drachenklinge]

maybe my words were to harsh or at last did sound so, maybe due to my German style writing. 
Actually, I do see all the mentioned faults of 4grounds buildings, but just wanted to add another point of view. In the end I wanted to emphasize, that IF you need to buy buildings, 4ground's should be considered definitely.

so, no offence meant and I am glad that none seem to be taken.

best wishes
DK

[M Blakey]

Lovely thanks for the review very informative!

I have both a few 4 ground items and Resin Scenery and to me its just the resin stuff feels more quirky and has more personality then the mdf stuff.

[shandy]

Interesting discussion. I see that people don't have the time to build and paint scenery, I can relate to that as I hate painting resin. And I concur that it boils down to aesthetics and personal preference.

However the thing I don't get is how the pricing of 4Ground is competitive. Compare with two resin churches: One by Hovels, which is £33.00 painted (http://www.hovelsltd.co.uk/european_25.htm). I guess this may be a bit on the small size, and not everyone likes the style of Hovels (though I do).

There is also another one by Grand Manner (http://www.grandmanner.co.uk/Stone_built_Medieval_Church--product--589.html), which I consider to be the best resin scenery there is for 28mm. This one is £ 142.50 also painted (to Wargames standard, whatever that may be). Now that is a lot of money, but considering the quality of the model, it's not that much more than the 4Ground church.

[Porthius]

Hi Shandy,

That's +£142.50 for painting the church to wargames standard. The total cost for the resin and painting is £237.50! So over double the price.

The other thing to mention is that a lot of these resin buildings lack interior detail. Not sure if the Grand Manner does but they don't have any pics.

This is why it makes financial as well as aesthetic sense to me.

[Drachenklinge]

and again ... two new links to store ... thank You for that.

Is it possible to play thesechurches from the inside? After constructing, the 4ground is.
Please, do not misunderstood me,  I am merely pointing out differences. Sometimes I am wondering myself about the clientel of tabletop-gamers, which I belong to as well.

I owe a tower from the company Pardulon, they sell buildings in a more modular way. More or less each builing can often be combined with others, even exchanging floors from one to another, if I recall it right. Because their floorplans are consequently often of the same length and width. Not all, but quite a few, I think.

But most resin buildings I know are - even if the roof is seperately - not very well play-able from the inside, cause its walls are too thick. Especially when it is a smaller building.

However, maybe these companies are not all equally known to gamers, so it sure is also a question of PR.

best wishes
DK

[Anna Elizabeth]

The interior detail is what appeals to me about the 4Ground building. I don't know if I need this church, but the review is a good start for me to look at their other kits.

[M Blakey]

There is quite abit of detail in the grand manner stuff I've got the church for christmas from the missus (maybe looking back she may have been hinting at something? )  im going to do a review/reference pics when my next order comes through in the next couple of weeks.

[shandy]

That's +£142.50 for painting the church to wargames standard. The total cost for the resin and painting is £237.50! So over double the price.

  Oh my, I didn't realize that!

When I restarted wargaming two years ago and still thought it would be a small side diversion, I bought the Spanish Church from Grand Manner for the pirate games. I had to paint it myself and we ate tinned beans for a month after I payed the customs dues 

And you are right, I never thought about using the interior of a building. This is an argument for MDF.

[Captain Blood]

Don't know about the church, but most Grand Manner buildings have interior detailing and lift off roofs.
This isn't true for all resin buildings of course. Then again, it's probably not true for many MDF buildings either.

[Anna Elizabeth]

I'll take a good look at Grand Manner too, then.

I'd like 2-3 really good pieces for Europe, like 19th century-on, in 28mm, with interiors.

[shandy]

Don't know about the church, but most Grand Manner buildings have interior detailing and lift off roofs.

The Spanish Church does have a lift off roof and some interior detailing. Great building but princely price, especially when p&p and customs were added. I'm glad I changed all my other gaming to 15mm 

[tin shed gamer]

I design for a living,and I'm currently in talks with and Mdf manufacturer to look at rendering ,etc.Now I also have work with Grand Manner,and 1st Corps to name but two.So I'm neither one camp or the other,
Mdf excels at Western and Oriental buildings,and multi layering is a strong advantage ,and industrial structures,bridges etc.are very difficult to product effectively by hand.where organic shapes and curves are better sculpted.
Neither  construction method can effectively cover all topics.And there are a lot of examples of the limitations of both methods littering shows these days.(I'm not singling out 4ground it just happens to be the building in the topic there are others out there)For me the pre painted rendering trend is an arms race,with a method that it is trying to run before it can walk.
Good design has a greater shelf life,and it is something I personally feel is lacking in many of the pre painted Mdf kits on the market at the moment .
The idea is sound and does have a place,and I would buy pre painted if I felt it was a design that's worth owning.
Yes it is down to personal taste,and depends on what you have a use for.But for me its just too naive a styling and I find it wanting.It may sound a little harsh or preachy it's not intended to,It's the observations of someone who does it for his bread and butter.
Mark.