TAG pikemen - perhaps a silly question?

[Ragnar]

Hi, looking at the TAG renaissance pike men, I have a question about the packs "xxxx pikemen marching" such as this one http://www.theassaultgroup.co.uk/index.php?prod=1092 or this one http://www.theassaultgroup.co.uk/index.php?prod=4

My question is, where do the pikes go as I can't make it out from the photos?  Are they shouldered, which is what I would guess when the pikemen are marching?  Or are they not carrying them at all?

If anyone has pictures of painted examples, I would be appreciative.

Signed,
Confused.

[Atheling]

Hi, looking at the TAG renaissance pike men, I have a question about the packs "xxxx pikemen marching" such as this one http://www.theassaultgroup.co.uk/index.php?prod=1092 or this one http://www.theassaultgroup.co.uk/index.php?prod=4

My question is, where do the pikes go as I can't make it out from the photos?  Are they shouldered, which is what I would guess when the pikemen are marching?  Or are they not carrying them at all?

If anyone has pictures of painted examples, I would be appreciative.

Signed,
Confused.

They look like they are carried upright resting on the shoulder to me- I could well be wrong though as I don't own any of these beauties yet.

Darrell.

[huevans]

What Darrell said. The palm of the hand is cupped to receive the butt end of the pike.

[Drunkendwarf]

What Darrell said. The palm of the hand is cupped to receive the butt end of the pike.

As the one in red below (photo Renegade miniatures)


DJ

[Ragnar]

Many thanks lads.

It looks kind of obvious now that I know the answer.   

[westwaller]

Yup cupped hand receives end of pike...

In all honesty I regard this pose very much as a 'miniatures' pose- it is probably much more practical for miniatures to be sculpted this way than the far more likely pose of 'how you would expect someone to carry a fairly unwieldy large pole'- ie with their arm a lot further forwards with the pole balanced over the shoulder. But that would mean doing a two part model.

[olicana]

Yup cupped hand receives end of pike...

In all honesty I regard this pose very much as a 'miniatures' pose- it is probably much more practical for miniatures to be sculpted this way than the far more likely pose of 'how you would expect someone to carry a fairly unwieldy large pole'- ie with their arm a lot further forwards with the pole balanced over the shoulder. But that would mean doing a two part model

My understanding is that they kept the things as vertical as possible. If the point of balance of a sloped pike was at the shoulder, the leverage the 'loose end' would exert would make it feel very heavy. In close formation, you couldn't hold the pike further up, thus making the centre of balance more central, because the bottom end would poke the guy in front. I  think the term marching is misleading, as it gives the impression of 'easy march, in column of route' where room between ranks would be available to balance the pike over the shoulder. This pose is more 'advancing', as if manoeuvring in battle formation.

[westwaller]

Thanks for putting the photos up olicana, makes the discussion a lot easier...

Maybe I should have said, it is one of those poses that doesn't always looks too convincing with miniature pikemen, although I know that they did it, possibly because only certain miniatures have their arm extended to the right length, if you know what I mean- the orange and red renegade ones shown above are good examples. I guess also that miniature pikes are often a bit out of scale, even the wire ones, so the pose in 28mm can look a bit more like 'tossing a caber'!

I agree it is misleading to call it 'marching' too. I think I have read that on some occasions, on a long march, the pikes would be carried as part of the baggage train- it kind of makes sense. I know the sealed knot carry theirs to events in a lorry after all...

[olicana]

Thanks for putting the photos up olicana, makes the discussion a lot easier...

Maybe I should have said, it is one of those poses that doesn't always looks too convincing with miniature pikemen, although I know that they did it, possibly because only certain miniatures have their arm extended to the right length, if you know what I mean- the orange and red renegade ones shown above are good examples. I guess also that miniature pikes are often a bit out of scale, even the wire ones, so the pose in 28mm can look a bit more like 'tossing a caber'!

I agree it is misleading to call it 'marching' too. I think I have read that on some occasions, on a long march, the pikes would be carried as part of the baggage train- it kind of makes sense. I know the sealed knot carry theirs to events in a lorry after all...

I've always wondered about this quote from Shakespeare's Henry V (said by Pistol, encountering Henry V in disguise the night before Agincourt): "Trail'st thou the puissant pike?"

Being that Shakespeare was around in the pike and shot period, did he see soldiers dragging them along behind them? Of course, it is always possible that I'm completely misunderstanding Pistol's question.

[westwaller]

Hmmm interesting quote, I cant tell you what it means, beyond what it appears to mean, but I am sure I have read something in my collection of Ecw books about pikes being carried at trail when marching. If I remember correctly it is a contemporary passing reference, with no explanation as to how this was done.

 A quick flick through Haythornthwaite has revealed 'trayle your pike' from Principles of the art of militarie' which involves holding it just under the head with the right hand, and the rest trailing at about 45 degrees to the ground. Sorry no photos I have no idea how to do it on this phone!!

Elsewhere there is also an engraving of a provision wagon with at least one pikeman accompanying it with his pike at trail, although he is holding it in the middle. Perhaps less pikemen carried pikes on the march or marched spaced out rather than in a tight block?

[has.been]

Pike at the advance (upright in cupped hand) = for maneuvering around the battlefield (easier to get block to turn left/right)
Pike sloped (resting on shoulder)= for easy marching, normally in column on a road/lane.
Pike tailed (dragged along behind, by the pikehead = for getting through woods (so pikes don't get caught in branches)

When I started wargaming the English Civil War I wanted all my units to be at the charge (leveled & pointing at the enemy) as I thought this looked the most warlike, however there is then great difficulty in getting pike units into 'base to base' contact. 15 years of Sealed Knot re-enactment  also taught me that 'Charge' is very tiring on the arm muscles. After a friend tried moving a wargaming unit & managed to stick several sharpened  pikes under his fingernails I now prefer the 'over the shoulder' pose.
 

[Ragnar]

Excellent information Gents, thanks.