FFS, enough with the damned white spots

[FramFramson]

I use Daler-Rowney brush-on varnish for my matte coats. It's very, very matte, but for a while now, I've been having a problem where I simply cannot get a coat without whitening in the deeper cracks and crevices where the varnish pools.

I dilute it somewhat with white spirit, but have also tried it undiluted. There's no difference.

I have tried applying extremely thin coats and will repeatedly sop up any pooled varnish with my brush, but there comes a point where I have to leave it alone to dry and can't twiddle further. It's reached a point where just about every figure I paint must be touched up.

Any advice?

EDIT: I have also tried re-applying a coat of gloss, since that's a fix that works sometimes for people experiencing frosting problems, but that doesn't do a damn thing for me here.

[dampfpanzerwagon]

I've had the same issue with my latest batch......

So if anyone has an answer, I'd be interested too.

Tony

[Major_Gilbear]

When you say "white spots", do you mean a sort of "silvering" like you get when air is trapped under a decal?

I ask as I occasionally get these with my varnishing process, and I think it's caused by one of two related things:

1) Moisture still trapped in the paint/ink/wash. It seems dry, but clearly it sometimes takes longer than 24h for a model to be totally dry. I wonder if something in the inks/washes/acrylic mediums I use acts as a retarder of sorts and just makes that last little bit of drying take forever.

2) The varnish pools very slightly in the crevice, and the surface dries, trapping a little moisture (or perhaps a minute amount of air) in the crevice. As it dries, the silvering appears in the deepest part of the crevice. Since this isn't an issue caused by the properties of the varnish's finish, reapplying more won't fix it at all.

In both cases, I have tried the following to minimise the instances of this happening:

A/ I leave the model somewhere warm and dry for a couple of days to fully dry if possible. If I'm not going to use the model for an imminent game, I may put put it in my case and return to seal it even weeks later.

B/ I apply the varnish into the deepest parts of the model, and then brush outwards from them to cover the rest of the model - this helps to avoid too much varnish pooling, and also from getting air trapped there. I then leave the model somewhere still to dry, but try and keep it away from anywhere too warm - letting it dry a little more slowly seems to help.

Beyond these issues, I can only wonder if:

- Your issue is with the matting agent in the varnish itself? I know sometimes it can become irregular or behave unexpectedly (and often settles out if you leave it undisturbed for a while).

- Maybe you got a bad batch?

- Maybe it needs regular shaking or stirring (but not right before you apply - to avoid bubbles)?

- Maybe some of the solvent has evaporated from it, and in applying the stuff, you're getting (basically) uneven drying that "pushes" the matting agent into the cracks and causes the whitening? A little like the "tide marks" you sometimes get from washes, but the other way around.

[Daeothar]

I've had the very same issue but with Vallejo washes!

And then only when I dilute/thin them with water before applying. The wash pools in the deepest recesses (think the folds of capes for instance) and then dries with a slightly opaque whiteness.

The high points of the surface are ok though.

So I think the Major might be on to something there with his moisture theory...

[jthomlin]

I've had the very same issue but with Vallejo washes!

Sorry to say, but it's nice to know that I'm not the only one who has that issue.

Citadel washes and my home brew washes*, no problems, just the Vallejo, so much so that I've stopped using them.

* (50% Matt Medium, 50% Water & Flow Medium + paint or ink to suit)

Cheers!
Joe Thomlinson

[Major_Gilbear]

I've had the very same issue but with Vallejo washes!

it's nice to know that I'm not the only one who has that issue.

I don't use commercial washes (I make my own), but I have observed that different brands of matte medium can sometimes leave a little whiteness/filming on the model, and that changing the mix ratio a little seems to fix this usually.

I think with matte medium, it's due to the matting agent; this seems to suggest (to me) that it may be one of the secondary list of issues I put that the end of my fist post.

[FramFramson]

When you say "white spots", do you mean a sort of "silvering" like you get when air is trapped under a decal?

I ask as I occasionally get these with my varnishing process, and I think it's caused by one of two related things:

1) Moisture still trapped in the paint/ink/wash. It seems dry, but clearly it sometimes takes longer than 24h for a model to be totally dry. I wonder if something in the inks/washes/acrylic mediums I use acts as a retarder of sorts and just makes that last little bit of drying take forever.

2) The varnish pools very slightly in the crevice, and the surface dries, trapping a little moisture (or perhaps a minute amount of air) in the crevice. As it dries, the silvering appears in the deepest part of the crevice. Since this isn't an issue caused by the properties of the varnish's finish, reapplying more won't fix it at all.

In both cases, I have tried the following to minimise the instances of this happening:

A/ I leave the model somewhere warm and dry for a couple of days to fully dry if possible. If I'm not going to use the model for an imminent game, I may put put it in my case and return to seal it even weeks later.

B/ I apply the varnish into the deepest parts of the model, and then brush outwards from them to cover the rest of the model - this helps to avoid too much varnish pooling, and also from getting air trapped there. I then leave the model somewhere still to dry, but try and keep it away from anywhere too warm - letting it dry a little more slowly seems to help.

Beyond these issues, I can only wonder if:

- Your issue is with the matting agent in the varnish itself? I know sometimes it can become irregular or behave unexpectedly (and often settles out if you leave it undisturbed for a while).

- Maybe you got a bad batch?

- Maybe it needs regular shaking or stirring (but not right before you apply - to avoid bubbles)?

- Maybe some of the solvent has evaporated from it, and in applying the stuff, you're getting (basically) uneven drying that "pushes" the matting agent into the cracks and causes the whitening? A little like the "tide marks" you sometimes get from washes, but the other way around.

1) I gloss varnish before applying the matte varnish and have left that to dry for as long as a week prior to applying the matte coat.

2) That is exactly what's happening, but it doesn't seem like bubbles - it's TOO white, like white paint almost. My suspicion is that there's maybe TOO much talc in this batch (the coats I've been getting have been VERY matte, even after substantial diluting with white spirit)

A) See #1 above. Extra drying time before application does not resolve the issue.

B) I try to draw as much varnish away from pooling as I can, but it flows very readily on it's own. There comes a point where I can't keep dabbing it with the brush or I will ruin the finish, because I'm now trying to push around half-dry varnish with my brush (and my drying area is not excessively warm). After I have to stop drawing away pooling varnish, there is some natural settling. Also sometimes it occurs in very tiny cracks and crevices, where you simply can't draw the varnish out without outright wiping it off.

I now a lot of people who get matte varnishes sometimes let it settle and pour off the medium so as to get a higher concentration of matte, but I'm wondering if I should instead do the opposite, and use it without shaking it beforehand (i.e. with a fair amount of talc settled in the bottom) to get LESS talc. In the absence of a concrete solution, I may try this on the next batch.

[Dr.Falkenhayn]

I've had the very same issue but with Vallejo washes!

And then only when I dilute/thin them with water before applying. The wash pools in the deepest recesses (think the folds of capes for instance) and then dries with a slightly opaque whiteness.

 i got rid of this nasty Problem when i startet using distilled Water to thin down my Valljeo Products...

EDIT: I have also tried re-applying a coat of gloss, since that's a fix that works sometimes for people experiencing frosting problems, but that doesn't do a damn thing for me here.

has never worked out for me aswell,the only Thing you can do is overpaint the White Spots 

[Major_Gilbear]

I wonder if the matting agent (talc) is clumping a little - flocculation of sorts? It might only be a little, and therefore only visible once dry.

Adding more medium (varnish) may help... But if it still persists, could you put the bottle in an ultrasonic bath (if you have access to one) for a short time?

[The Mystic Spiral]

Had a similar problem once. Was probably a bad batch, but I swapped over to Windsor & Newton Galleria Acrylic Matt varnish and that has been utterly reliable.

Best thing to do is bin your varnish and try a new bottle of your regular, if it still does it maybe it's time to change the brand.

J

[FramFramson]

The main problem for me has been the fact that nothing I can buy in Ontario has ever been satisfactorily matte. As Major Gilbear can attest, I had to mail order away to the UK to get this stuff. The one W&N matte I found here requires three coats to even get just a satin finish - very disappointing. The other brands available are crude and crappy, best suited to student stuff and not miniatures.

What I don't understand is why this bottle is slowly going bad over time. At first it was the best matte varnish I'd used, by a wide margin.

I can't believe I'm the ONLY person in all of Toronto who has to use brush-on matte varnish for miniatures, so I don't know why it's so blasted difficult to get something that works.

I wonder if the matting agent (talc) is clumping a little - flocculation of sorts? It might only be a little, and therefore only visible once dry.

Adding more medium (varnish) may help... But if it still persists, could you put the bottle in an ultrasonic bath (if you have access to one) for a short time?

The latter might be worth a try, but I'm not sure which medium might be best to add. I'm already diluting with white spirit, though that's not medium of course.

[The Mystic Spiral]

You tried airbrushing? Don't drown it, but a light dusting tends to make the less matt varnishes more matt. If you get what I mean.

[FramFramson]

No working airbrush and no real place to use it properly even if I did, I'm afraid.

[Gary Peach]

Hi

After having a reaction on 50+ figures Ive done some testing. 

Humidity, Dryness, etc Ive had it happen in all weathers.  Dry or damp figures.  waiting 1hr, a day...  still happened... Heated figures, cold figures, still happened. Did tests on a full black flat surface...  can still happen.

OK so what has worked.  Im not saying this is the answer.  However, after doing some google-fu research, looking at artists and car painters having the same problems, it seems some of the white is where, for some reason (not found), the coat is lifting or bubbling, and also clumping of the matting agent.  There is a lot about the ghosting or opaquing too...

On reading how artists deal with it, they use turpentine and 'soak' the area.  Ive tried it on the bubble type areas, in creases etc and brush soaked it to wet, no runs. Although the spray is not exactly the same material, it seems to soften it and in drying it settles back flat...  cant guarantee it every time.

Reading how it may happen in car painting terms, it can be to do with changing direction, over spraying the 1st coat.  So dont.  Spray in the same direction.

White spotting, the matting agent?  or clumping of some of the paint constituents. Well it dawned on me.  Shake the can and leave it. And dont put too much on, 1 coat only.

The opaquing sheen is because its going on too thick.  Seems the spray cans and nozzles are getting better, it may be the Banksey effect on the tech.
The sand finish is for 2 clear reasons (others may exist), 1 over painting at a distance on to a damp 1st coat. 2 over-coating to a damp or wet coat when the temp is too hot, it dries before it hits and cant be absorbed.


After trying it all.

Allow your figures to dry, or heat them to dry.  Allow them to cool to ambient temp.  To spray them heated means the paint may dry in a sand texture.

Shake the can and leave it for a while.  Allow the excess un mixable constituent to drop or rise what ever it does in the can.

Spray 1 coat in one direction.  Nozzle about 200mm away.  (Im using a Plasticote - Valspar hobby paint with a rotating cover that clicks in place)  Very fine spray that seems to be enough to actually coat a figure.  Im finding that this also ensures it is really matt... so much I didnt think it was at first. It also seems dry very fast but dont trust that.  Leave it a few hours before another coat, if any.

Spray in small numbers.

Must say I still dont trust it, so test a figure 1st.  Im finding the inconsistency a pain.

[FramFramson]

That's quite a bit of useful information, but I'm not spraying though; I'm brushing it on.