Looking for a Squad based "fantasy skirmish" game

[affun]

Heya

As my 15 mm skirmish collection grows, I find myself wanting to put a few more of them on the table, as well as to take on some projects that wouldn't fit into the warband-skirmish mold: Small squads.

Thus, I am on the lookout for a ruleset that plays well with squads of 3-12 models, where 12 is large, and between 10 and 30 miniatures per side. Or something similar.
I know there is Saga, which I am considering, but I would prefer something a bit more "maleable". A strong contender is Lion Rampant, and the upcomming Dragon Rampant, which I very much enjoy, as well as God of Battles, though that game uses a a few too many miniatures per side.
There is also, of course, always the option of homebrewing, but before I go ahead and write up an entire game, I thought I'd have a look around.

So thats why I started this topic: Do any of you guys per chance know a ruleset that fits that mold? I'd be very interested to see if theres one I've missed.

Because topics without pictures are boring, here's a couple of old pics of my 15mm stuff:

Cheers!

[psullie]

Lovely paint jobs, better than some of my 25mm.
Although  I haven't played it I heard good things about Bring of Battle/Epic Heroes http://www.brinkofbattle.com

[affun]

Lovely paint jobs, better than some of my 25mm.
Although  I haven't played it I heard good things about Bring of Battle/Epic Heroes http://www.brinkofbattle.com

Thanks

Thats more in the single model skirmish, though. Did check it out at one point, not what I am looking for here. I am actually a bit surprised that I can't seem to find a ruleset that does this. I guess what I am looking for is sort of like a customizable Saga? Or Saga meets Warhammer Fantasy. The very static unit sizes of Saga always looked weird to me.

[Elbows]

Lion Rampant and the upcoming Dragon Rampant could be done as squad based skirmish...but may be a little light on the rules if you stay in very small skirmishes.

[Grün]

Take a look at NoQuarter:

https://noquarterwargames.wordpress.com/

[robh]

Armies of Arcana and the Chipco Fantasy Rules! are both designed for mass skirmish gaming.
Both are well reviewed around the web

[Nord]

You might want to look into Of Gods and Mortals. Squads are about the size you are looking for, though there is an emphasis on single figures (legends) and of course a deity leads your troops into battle - but you could always forego this if you wanted. The book contains sample lists (Norse, Egyptian and Greek, maybe Celtic too - it's been a while since I thumbed through). There are lots of abilities to apply to your troops to personalise them. Yet another Osprey book, cheap to buy, one that didn't seem to appeal as much as recent efforts.

I have to say that Saga is not that difficult to adapt - there's a post somewhere in this very forum, some chap has made a start on creating 4 boards for WHFB battles and is promising to make more. He's added in creatures, monsters, some magic too, looks pretty decent though I have yet to have a go. There are also boards around for LotR, though these seem to be name changes only rather than rewrites (Vikings = Uruk Hai, Normans = Rohan, that kind of thing).

[affun]

You might want to look into Of Gods and Mortals. Squads are about the size you are looking for, though there is an emphasis on single figures (legends) and of course a deity leads your troops into battle - but you could always forego this if you wanted. The book contains sample lists (Norse, Egyptian and Greek, maybe Celtic too - it's been a while since I thumbed through). There are lots of abilities to apply to your troops to personalise them. Yet another Osprey book, cheap to buy, one that didn't seem to appeal as much as recent efforts.

I have to say that Saga is not that difficult to adapt - there's a post somewhere in this very forum, some chap has made a start on creating 4 boards for WHFB battles and is promising to make more. He's added in creatures, monsters, some magic too, looks pretty decent though I have yet to have a go. There are also boards around for LotR, though these seem to be name changes only rather than rewrites (Vikings = Uruk Hai, Normans = Rohan, that kind of thing).

I had completely forgotten about oGaM - Its as you say; it doesn't get that much mention (though still a bit). I think I even jotted it down for potentially fitting a thing like this. And I am a pretty big Ganesha fan. Buying it either now or the first to have a look.
I do definitely want to play Saga at some point, its just not entirely the thing I want for this project. That will be with proper vikings (I am a scandinavian, yet I do not posses a viking army. That is a disgrace, in a way).

Take a look at NoQuarter:

https://noquarterwargames.wordpress.com/

Looks interesting. Taking a look. I haven't ever heard of it, though.

Armies of Arcana and the Chipco Fantasy Rules! are both designed for mass skirmish gaming.
Both are well reviewed around the web

Seems bnice enough, but they are a bit too Warhammer Fantasy like - focussing on line battles, where I am looking for something more fluid. Thanks for the suggestion though. Jotting these down for when my 15mm collection grows to next stage in the future

***

Thanks for the suggestions and comments y'all. Very helpful.

[emosbur]

I am partial to Dux Britanniarum. Is for dark ages campaigns, but you can adapt it to fantasy.

[Argonor]

I think the main problem with fantasy in this respect is the vastness of different races, and weapons/armour types to be covered to get that feel of 'we fight in units, but we each have our own special flavour' for really small 'units' to feel different than playing a battle game with larger units.

If you want to play scenario-driven (and don't care squat about the points), I think you could use a ruleset like GoB (just ditch the 'last 4 models run away' rule), as the unit strength/weakness is covered buy the number of models in the unit, so smaller units just roll less dice (and you can have 'elite' models counting as 2 or more dice), but if you want to use a balanced system, my money would be on SAGA, as you can have units of 4-12 (buying models in 4, 8 or 12 man blocks), and I guess you could easily use the 'reduced models' principle that is going to be in Dragon Rampant (fewer models, but with a number of HP totalling up to the full amount for a 'point' of this troop type) for that, too.

I intend to get Dragon Rampant (and use it without the turnover rule), but still a couple of months away it does not cater for your needs right now... 

[Hobgoblin]

I had completely forgotten about oGaM - Its as you say; it doesn't get that much mention (though still a bit). I think I even jotted it down for potentially fitting a thing like this. And I am a pretty big Ganesha fan.

Just a thought, but have you seen Ganesha's Swatters rules? They're sci-fi, but would be easily adapted for fantasy. Squads move on CDs (or equivalent bases), with casualties taken off as necessary. There are quite an array of alien types that could be readily fitted to fantasy monsters. It's designed for 20 to 50 miniatures a side. It was also designed with 15mm in mind.

[Hobgoblin]

Just a thought, but have you seen Ganesha's Swatters rules? They're sci-fi, but would be easily adapted for fantasy. Squads move on CDs (or equivalent bases), with casualties taken off as necessary. There is quite an array of alien types that could be readily fitted to fantasy monsters. It's designed for 20 to 50 miniatures a side. It was also designed with 15mm in mind.

[Vermis]

Armies of Arcana and the Chipco Fantasy Rules! are both designed for mass skirmish gaming.
Both are well reviewed around the web

Last I saw the Chipco site was shuttered, with no indication of what was happening with Fantasy Rules or where it was going. Is it still around in some readily-available form?

[affun]

I think the main problem with fantasy in this respect is the vastness of different races, and weapons/armour types to be covered to get that feel of 'we fight in units, but we each have our own special flavour' for really small 'units' to feel different than playing a battle game with larger units.

If you want to play scenario-driven (and don't care squat about the points), I think you could use a ruleset like GoB (just ditch the 'last 4 models run away' rule), as the unit strength/weakness is covered buy the number of models in the unit, so smaller units just roll less dice (and you can have 'elite' models counting as 2 or more dice), but if you want to use a balanced system, my money would be on SAGA, as you can have units of 4-12 (buying models in 4, 8 or 12 man blocks), and I guess you could easily use the 'reduced models' principle that is going to be in Dragon Rampant (fewer models, but with a number of HP totalling up to the full amount for a 'point' of this troop type) for that, too.

I intend to get Dragon Rampant (and use it without the turnover rule), but still a couple of months away it does not cater for your needs right now... 

Yeah, I agree. I find that it is a hard balance to achieve; just the right amount of "crunch" to make distinct troop types (and races) possible, but still not so much as to slow the game down. That is one of the things GW actually kinda got right in Warhammer Fantasy. I just completely despise the wast and unnecessary amount of dicerolls (to hit, to wound, armour save), but it gets tricky to have that variety of troop types in d6 with out it.
Also, there's a lot of other clunky aspects of it, but we have a thread for that down in the general section  

I am looking at Saga now - I can actually see it work as you say. Certainly intrigued. I just can't shake the feeling that I'd rather game it with proper vikings. I should propably just give it a whirl, though. Monsters as "4 wound" hearthguard, and so on.
That might also be an excuse to grab some copplestone 15mm  

Just a thought, but have you seen Ganesha's Swatters rules? They're sci-fi, but would be easily adapted for fantasy. Squads move on CDs (or equivalent bases), with casualties taken off as necessary. There are quite an array of alien types that could be readily fitted to fantasy monsters. It's designed for 20 to 50 miniatures a side. It was also designed with 15mm in mind.

I just ordered Of Gods and Mortals, as I was tricked by amazons 1-click-buy scheme. Just wanted to check how much I'd cost after shipping, but then it said that it was on its way. Im not entirely enthused by swatters, with the awkward style basing, but that might be possible to get around if the core is solid. Will certainly keep in mind.

I think one of my problems is that I just enjoy collecting rule-sets too much  

[mdauben]

Thus, I am on the lookout for a ruleset that plays well with squads of 3-12 models, where 12 is large, and between 10 and 30 miniatures per side.

Have you looked at GW's Lord of the Rings/The Hobbit Stategy Battle Game?  It is organized into groups (warbands) of up to 12 warriors, each of which must be lead by a "hero" (named or generic).  It can handle anything from just 2-3 heroes alone, up to 30-50 warriors plus their associated heroes with ease.  Much larger than that and I find it starts to slow down with just one player per side, but if you are determiend it still works for even larger forces.

Its obviously written for the Middle-Earth venue, but there are enough different troop types in the game that you can probably find one that comes close to your conception of any fantasy race.