Threshold Children

[WallyTWest]

First lurker game of the league- my two fishmen spent the game fleeing from a mob of children armed with Cleavers.

So- Question;
1.) Is that ethical?
2.) Why was that so effective/funny?

Better question- Why were children included in the threshold list? I noticed there is no skill like "Screamer", "bait" or "Innocence" in the skill table.

[Grumbling Grognard]

Lol!  "The Bowery Boys Meet Cthulhu", I must have missed that one on the late, late show.  

( And, for you youngsters that have no idea who the "Bowery Boys/Dead End Kids" were: The Bowery Boys and  Dead End Kids)

Scott

[EndTransmission]

Surely the kids were just after some sushi?

[WallyTWest]

I was thinking more along the lines of some fishmen crawling out south of Boston in the wrong neighborhood.

Reguardless- it's an interesting list- more advancement rolls. More skills gained every game. I fully expect these kids to be throwing sticks of dynamite and running with chainsaws in a few games.

[Grumbling Grognard]

I think that perhaps "Uncle Mike" has a solution built into SA 2 ed.

SA is different in that the Threshold players list is locked down for an extened period and the lurker list is handled totally different.  The lurker can wait until just prior to each game, *after* the scenario is chosen when the lurker picks his forces to customize a nasty encounter.  IMHO, this (technically) removes any possible impulse to "min-max" your list for either player because it is built into the game!      By this I mean the game is designed so that the lurker knows exactly what they are facing each time and can/should build a force to face it well in the scenario just rolled.  If he takes a horde of kids with low RES, there are lurkers that can force RES tests (for example) that may be able to handle them quite well.  

This may be "evil", "nasty" and (I guess) in some eyes as 'min-maxing'....but this *is* a Cthulhu game and the "good guys" are supposed to get screwed!

Edit: One more thing I just thought of that makes the kids a bad idea is that after his second win, "The Gang" will cost too much.  They cost 9 pts to start off, after the first win they cost 10PP (minimum, if he rolls well even more!).  So, at the very latest after the kids win a second game they will be over the PP limit as per p165 under the "Re-equipment Phase:.  SA restricts your team to 10pp (until your 1st promote).  So, they would have to "de-mob" (if that is even allowed...is that a "re-equip"?).  

[styx]

How do you recruited a mob of children and children?
1 Character - 4pts
5 Children - 2.5pts
5 Cleavers - 5pts
Mob - 4pts

That totals to 15.5, which would exceed the base 15, unless you took accountant for the Character.

[styx]

I think that perhaps "Uncle Mike" has a solution built into SA 2 ed.

SA is different in that the Threshold players list is locked down for an extened period and the lurker list is handled totally different.  The lurker can wait until just prior to each game, *after* the scenario is chosen when the lurker picks his forces to customize a nasty encounter.  IMHO, this (technically) removes any possible impulse to "min-max" your list for either player because it is built into the game!      By this I mean the game is designed so that the lurker knows exactly what they are facing each time and can/should build a force to face it well in the scenario just rolled.  If he takes a horde of kids with low RES, there are lurkers that can force RES tests (for example) that may be able to handle them quite well.  

This may be "evil", "nasty" and (I guess) in some eyes as 'min-maxing'....but this *is* a Cthulhu game and the "good guys" are supposed to get screwed!

Edit: One more thing I just thought of that makes the kids a bad idea is that after his second win, "The Gang" will cost too much.  They cost 9 pts to start off, after the first win they cost 10PP (minimum, if he rolls well even more!).  So, at the very latest after the kids win a second game they will be over the PP limit as per p165 under the "Re-equipment Phase:.  SA restricts your team to 10pp (until your 1st promote).  So, they would have to "de-mob" (if that is even allowed...is that a "re-equip"?).  

Children only can have one upgrade, but still yea. If you read the promotion they can have up to 15/15 PP and EP so you can build beyond the 15 as you are playing games to work to the 5/10/15 marks, but they are just guides for how to respend the points.

Still, the question is when you roll for advancement for the kids in the mob do you roll for each kid or the mob as a whole?

[WallyTWest]

I'm reading the Mob Rule and it actually goes out of its way to say Civilians and Agents only for threshold. Opponent "Cheated"- although in a halarious way. (the question remains, if you modeled 5 kids with cleavers should you be allowed to use them because)

The original question remains- what are children intended for? I don't get their use.

And another design question- was a "Screamer"/"Bait"/"Innocence"/"Gifted Youth" skill purposefully left out?

[WallyTWest]

Bait would hypothetically work like Biggs in X-Wing, where if the kid was the closest threshold agent in Line of sight- the lurker would be required to move towards him. Children Only.

Screamer would be for Dames and Children only- while in Close Combat with a lurker they can forgo their ability to damage to scream. It is CCB +1 - can only be done in the first round of combat and all threshold models within 8" get a CC Bonus of +1 until that models next activation/finally falls victim to the monster attacking.

Gifted Youth would allow the child to automatically manafest a psionic power on character creation with the ability to re-roll the useless power result.

Innocence could be purchased at character creation for civilians and children- and as a penalty they can never use a non improvised weapon. It would have some silly/awesome bonus to it. I would imagine undead could not purposefully move within 3"- auto 6 when attacking a demon and they purify grave markers for 1/2 actions (like reverse ghouls)

Any other ideas?

[Grumbling Grognard]

I *did* miss the fact your Threshold team *has to contain* 1 and only one character.

But I do not see where mobs exclude childern.  In my pdf it just says Threshold "usually" can make mobs of civilians and agents....  Considering the especially wacky nature of the game, I would have no issues with kid-mobs if they had a theme (i.e. "Dead End Kids").  

Also, where does it say you can have 15/15 before your first promote?  In my pdf it says "15 total points"  (p25).  Later in the post game section, the rules then indicates that you need to restrict to 10/10 until you have 5 wins (p165).

[WallyTWest]

That's Re-Equip vs Threshold Agency List Creation.

Basically if you need to re-equip before you get to 5 wins (Promotion-Page 34) your baseline for re-equip is 10/10. Extraordinary Heroism brings you to 15/15, Gallantry to 20/20 and Distinguished to Whatever/Whatever. You go through list creation and re-balancing in this game multiple times.

This line refrences early game when you are getting your face kicked in. You can re-equip at the station house if you have a model killed or loose two games in a row.

Upon revisiting the Mob rules- I agree with you- Mike left children out of that line but the disclaimer at the bottom says "whatever you can afford".

I'm guessing late game you could have some Massachusetts Army National Guard running around Insmouth or Arkham.- good for nothing but a glorified bayonet charge and some follow up shooting.

[Uncle Mike]

Nothing to say you can't do it...except the Black Marks that will start building up fast. We had lots of cool stuff for Children but decided to keep it to a minimum in the book. Size was a concern  (the book is huge and stuffed full...) as was content (as some folks have a real aversion to Children being eaten by Lurkers and stuff like that...) We may well expand on the rules at a later date. 

[forcedperfect]

I'd be stoked to see more stuff in the line of civilian mobs of all stripes eventually, as I really like the risk-management factor of black marks.  It's just another tool in the box, and a great element for a darker-themed game.  

But that's one of the things I love about this game; you can really make any kind of game you want, from two-fisted pulpy cheese (wheeeee!) to true Lovecraftian despair (uh... wheeeeee!), just by tweaking a few list elements.  It's really cleverly designed.

[Basement Dweller]

A mob of kids...or any cheap model (rats, cultists) create a pretty strong individual model.  The challenge is the ability to keep them alive...fishmen fighting them in HTH will be challenged, but a couple of cultists with Tommy guns (or .22s even) will end a mob of kids very quickly and leave you riddled with black marks.

You should be punished for rounding up a herd of kids and sending them at the lurkers...hence the black marks...