Star Wars VII Discussion Thread (was: Star Wars new trailer)

[Giger]

I'm seeing it again tonight and then again next week, I'll have my final judgement by then though I'm not sure it's going to change that much.

[nullBolt]

SNAPE KILLS DUMBLEDORE!

Did you guys like that spoiler? I bet you did.

I'm going to see the movie tonight but I've watched most of it online and I can't say I'm overwhelmed. The plot isn't that bad but the main villain is tacky and the new actors are fucking awful. Jesus, I know they wanted new blood but they could've got new blood with some sort of talent.

[Vermis]

What's a snape?

I liked the heroes but the villains sucked.

The plot isn't that bad but the main villain is tacky and the new actors are fucking awful. Jesus, I know they wanted new blood but they could've got new blood with some sort of talent.

Could barely stand the heroes, myself. I wanted to like them, I honestly did, but...

Okay, spoilers.

I liked the plot, the story, whatever you want to call it, well enough. The problem is, I liked it better when I saw it years ago, and it was called Episode IV: A New Hope. There's a dumpy little droid running around with vital intelligence for the good guys, because of course there is. There's a lonely kid from a desert planet who turns out to be strong in the force and gets whisked up in the adventure, because of course there is. There's a cantina where they go looking for transport, because of course there is. There's a masked, black-clad dark side villain who talks to giant holograms and sticks a lightsabre into the elderly mentor father-figure near the end, because of course there is. There's a giant round superweapon that shoots planets, has bits that need to be sabotaged, and has a weakness that has to be poked at by X-Wings (not to mention trenches and superstructures to fly through), because of course there is.

Well, it's not all like A New Hope. There's an obnoxious hypercompetent mechanical-genius force-genius pilot-genius kid from a desert planet, played with the range of a plank of mdf, and the misfit sidekick who constantly flails around and jabbers unfunny nonsense. Where have I seen those before?

[FramFramson]

Another for the didn't like it crowd here. Neither I nor the wife are fans. There was a little I liked, but far more I disliked.

Better than the prequels? Sure. But that's a low bloody bar. Looked like Star Wars? Sure. I guess they hired decent concept artists.

Underlying concept and general plot idea was sound, but the execution was disastrous - as it was for the prequels. Once you get past the flash and glitter, everything that really makes for a great story fails to hold up. Pacing was terrible, characterization suffered immensely, there was way too much noise and cacophany with no chance to digest or reflect, there was no sense of scale or space, the villains were interesting but hilariously ineffectual, everything was suborned to fanservice, and there were way way way WAY too many convenient coincidences. Anytime the plot needed anything to happen, it just happened. It was incredibly lazy storytelling. It was bad storytelling.

Abrams is a hack. George Miller can school him before even waking up. You want a movie to watch? Go see Fury Road again.

[Momotaro]

Another for the didn't like it crowd here. Neither I nor the wife are fans. There was a little I liked, but far more I disliked.

You're gonna need a bigger treehouse for your club guys  

CGI was used well, there were some smart call-outs to other films - the TIE fighters framed against the sun, the very first shot of X-Wings on the water.  The battles had a strong, visceral quality to them, and the humour was decent ("That's NOT how the Force works!").  The rest just didn't do it for me, for all the reasons Fram and Vermis give (and which have often been pointed out as flaws in the films Abrams or his scriptwriting crew have worked on - Into Darkness and Prometheus being amongst the worst offenders).  I can't believe I saw the same movie that so many people are raving about.  

My wife isn't a Star Wars fan especially, and she was just bored.

[The Somnambulist]

Loved it.

Hated Fury Road.

[Commander Carnage]

I should mention although I didn't think it was great my kids loved it and have been playing Star Wars constantly since seeing it.

[FramFramson]

I think when the dust settles, I am going to basically think of TFA as being about as good as the prequels, which I disliked a lot, but maybe a bit less than most people.

The prequels had a few partially redeeming qualities. The visuals were beautiful and looked Star Wars-y at least. Ewan MacGregor was a great Obi-Wan. Iain MacDiarmid was great, period. Christopher Lee made as great a villain as he always does. But ultimately the story was bad and very poorly told. The incredible story that might have been, about a galaxy-spanning civilization brought to ruin by the complacency of it's rulers, the hubris of it's guardians, and the ego of its greatest, most beloved hero will never be told. Instead, a great fictional franchise was brought to ruin, thanks to the hubris and ego of the story's original creator. Which is sort of poetic, I suppose.

In the same sense, I think TFA had good things. Fin's arc and character, good visuals, some spotty instances where the scale or pacing were done right (like Rey exploring the Star Destroyer and the depiction of her life on Jakku), the interactions between Han and Leia, the basic plot idea about what happened to Luke and the galaxy after RotJ, that he tried to teach new Jedi and it went wrong, that the Rebellion won a partial victory but not a complete one and so the galaxy is still very much scarred by war. But overall the script and direction were very poor and the great story that could have been told, wasn't.

[Vermis]

Couldn't agree more, Fram. I think you've hit several nails on the head. (Edit: in your previous post! Though good points in your last one, too)To pick out a few bits:

characterization suffered immensely

Some might disagree, but I think Reyne or whatever her name is, is one of the most jaw-dropping examples of a Mary-Sue that I've seen in film. (In terms of a 'perfect' character, if not a self-insert) She fights for droid rights; outfights an entire gang of thugs; can make the Falcon turn on a sixpence with... I gather no experience of anything but speeder bikes; out-mechanics Han and Chewie, who are, in a classic Mary-Sue move, immediately wowed by her; seemingly automatically knows what a Jedi mind trick is and how to perform it; out-jedis and out-lightsabres a trained force user... At the end, instead of going to one of her and Han's oldest and closest friends (i.e. Chewie) Leia goes and hugs this kid she's never clapped eyes on before. And then Reyne is somehow chosen and trusted with the all-important task to fetch the potential saviour of the resistance, the long-lost Luke.

But as far as I can tell, the most character development she had is that she was left on Jakku, makes a couple of half-hearted attempts to stay or return there that are forgotten seconds later, and is a bit scared a couple of times. Oh, and the film comes right out and calls Han her father figure a couple of minutes after they meet.

I can't get my head around it. What was the reasoning?

the villains were interesting but hilariously ineffectual

Heh. See above. But at times I had the feeling I was watching some sci-fi version of the Hitler Youth. They were badly missing a Grand Moff or two.

everything was suborned to fanservice

I know what you mean, given my last post. But while I get there would need to be some kind of continuity from Eps 4-6, I think there were a few too many bits like, "you guys remember star destroyers? Here's one in the sand!" "You guys remember AT-ATs? Here's one in the sand!"

"Ho-ho-ho let's chuck her down the garbage chute to the trash compacter nudge nudge wink..."

Bah. There's more terrible characterisation. Captain whatserface stands around for a few minutes, doing little except looking metallic, before she ends up as the butt of a 40-year-old joke.

and there were way way way WAY too many convenient coincidences. Anytime the plot needed anything to happen, it just happened. It was incredibly lazy storytelling. It was bad storytelling.

I'm still not sure what the whole deal with the resistance. If the republic was reinstated against the remnants of the empire (remind me why the EU was kicked out again), surely the republic had an army that might be active against them? Or at least an intelligence network that might pick up news of a gigantic gun sticking out of a planet, before it blasted them out of the sky? Is the republic gone along with those few planets, then? What's the resistance's relationship to them, 'cos they come across as somewhat autonomous despite using the republic's navy, and seem all alone now. What's their role? Is their name a not-so-subtle flag, and they're some kind of maquis in first order space, solidifying the nazi themes? Are there any answers?

Bah. It's not as bad as trade blockades around Naboo, but it serves up a bunch of fridge logic. It's one of those movies that keeps bringing up hints of an unmade movie you might rather see. The first film was easier: evil empire shuns democracy, shoots planets, rules with iron fist. Bish. Heroic rebellion forms to fight it. Bosh. Ooh, 'clone wars', mysterious and kewl. Until they weren't so mysterious. Or kewl.

I should mention although I didn't think it was great my kids loved it and have been playing Star Wars constantly since seeing it.

I think that's another problem - too many miles on the clock.  

[FramFramson]

I think if you remove the nostalgia glasses it comes off very poorly. A lot of the people who love it have been saying almost the same thing, that "It was Star Wars!".

I'll concede it managed to look like Star Wars, but it sure didn't know how to tell a story the Way Star Wars did.

[Malamute]

Loved it.

Hated Fury Road.

 

[Gibby]

You all raise valid points, and those same things were not lost on me. That said, I really enjoyed watching it - I wasn't bored the entire time, and I rarely go to the cinema so I guess the big screen effect still gets me. Heck, to me it was what I want from Star Wars.

[Mason]

....Heck, to me it was what I want from Star Wars.

Me too.

I have seen it twice now and enjoyed it both times.
In fact, I think that I enjoyed it more the second time as I could really enjoy the background stuff more.

I think that the whole point of this film was to play it 'safe' and keep as many people happy as possible while setting the scene for the future.

This could (will?) be the biggest franchise of all time so they were never going to break it and risk any serious divergence from the original 'formula' in the first film.
They can take those kind of risks with the spin-off that are planned but the core must be treated very carefully.

The difference with this franchise compared to most is that it is the older generations (the original fans from thirty odd years ago) who have to be appeased rather than the kids.

Even bearing that in mind you will never please all of the people all of the time.


(And for the record: I could not stand the prequels, so this is a MASSIVE improvement).

[Captain Blood]

Just saw it. Liked it. Thought Daisy Ridley acted the socks off the rest of them. Some very nice cinematic moments. Yes, a lot like the original Star Wars in many ways. But overall, different enough yet familiar enough to be enjoyable on its own terms, and as a worthy if somewhat belated follow up to the original trilogy. Looking forward to the extended edition 

[FramFramson]

I'm finding that a lot of my conversations with the diehards among my friends are going something like this:

Fanboy: I really like McDonalds, it's so tasty.
Fram: I don't. When I eat it, it makes me feel sick. It's made with bad ingredients and is really bad for you.
Fanboy: But it's really tasty. It's good.
Fram: Okay, I get that you like it and that's fine, but those mcnuggets are still made from pink slime.

I wish they'd stop trying to convince me that just because they find it tasty, it must be a four-star cordon bleu.