Unclaimed Treasure

[ElOrso]

Hi All,

It's been a while but we finally got together again for some games.

At the end of the night we had a discussion about unclaimed treasure.

We have played quite some games over the last few months but most of them ended the same way. One warband butchering the other.
The rules about unclaimed treasure state, if i'm not mistaken , that the winner gets all unclaimed treasure left on the map.

This is were we concluded some additional house-rules would be necessary.

We noticed almost all players adopted the same tactic of trying to butcher the other player as this has the most chance of success.
You don't want your goons running & carrying treasure if the other warband is following some kind of powerplay tactic with a lot of close combat and moving straight for you.
We definitely saw this when there was a difference in warbands where one had gotten the upper hand in previous games and was able to upgrade thiefs to barbarians etc... .

We felt there should be some extra rules that encourage other types of warbands that are not focussed on damage output/combat.

Now i think we are not the only people who have noticed this so i was wondering if you guys have any houserules to prevent a warband to focus only on combat.

What we briefly thought about was things like this, but i'm sure you guys might have other idea's.

1) A turn limit + all treasure not picked up is lost
2) A turn limit + all treasure not secured of the field is lost
3) The remaining warband gets 50% or 33% of all remaining treasure instead of all
4) You only get remaining treasures equal to the amount of models you have that can still carry treasure.

I hope my question is a bit clear, i'm not a native english speaker so i'm sure i've made some mistakes. 

Kind Regards
ElOrso

[Azzabat]

@ElOrso, we've had a similar problem with the treasure tokens, but one where everyone AVOIDS combat rather than slaughters one another, and every game seems to be the same. I.E. both sides would place their 3 treasures 9" directly in front of the table edge, then choose a side (didn't matter as they were both the same) and set up 3 figures 6" from the table edge (and 3" from the treasure). 1st turn they run up to the treasure and pick it up. 2nd turn onwards they start dragging it back to the table edge while the rest of the war band covers their retreat.

My way round this was to limit it to 5 Treasure Tokens, 2 per player, with the 5th being placed smack bang in the middle of the table. All other Treasures Tokens must be placed within 9" of this central Treasure Token. The central Treasure Token is also worth 2 x rolls on the treasure chart. This means people are more likely to get stuck in and actually venture onto the table.

With regard to the "Winner Takes All" and House Rules I'd be inclined to go with your first option, 1) A turn limit + all treasure not picked up is lost when the game ends.

We play a 6 turn limit, and that if one side has taken both their Wizard and Apprentice off the table, the game ends there and then, regardless of which turn number it is. This represents the uncertainty of the City with the opposition basically going ... "WTF?" and running off as well, imagining the other side has seen something nasty they haven't, and/or assuming the worst. Remaining soldiers on the table are removed, and if they are carrying a treasure tokens it's a 50/50 roll to see if they drop it, or keep hold of it. Unclaimed treasure tokens at the end of the game are unclaimed. I.E. No-one gets them.

This seems to work well as you have to balance up collecting treasure, getting them off the table, AND stopping your opponent doing the same. It means you also have to decide if you're going to send soldiers to intercept/slow down enemy soldiers carrying treasure, or use these same soldiers to protect yours.

This would stop one side tooling up for slaughter and not bothering with collecting Treasure Tokens as in your games @ElOrso, (presumably hoping to force a slaughter and gaining ALL the Treasure Tokens) as the other side could run off with just a single treasure, ending the game and resulting in the tooled up gang getting nothing.

C J     = )

[Koyote]

Below are the rules that I use to address the issue that you described. It incentivizes getting Treasure Tokens off the table and lessens the reward one gets for tabling an opponent.

GAME LENGTH & VICTORY CONDITIONS
The cataclysmic spell that doomed the ancient city of Felstad has largely subsided, but the tumultuous skies above Frostgrave remain unpredictable and lethal.  Propelled by hurricane winds, ensorcelled cyclones periodically blast the city with snow and subzero temperatures. The arrival of the sorcerous storms cannot be predicted by magical or mundane means, so those who are foolhardy enough to venture into the accursed city must remain forever alert to even the slightest change in temperature.  For when the hoarfrost blooms and the winds begin to howl, any living creature that cannot find shelter is doomed to join Felstad’s numberless frozen dead.

Random Game Length:
If a scenario’s rules do not specify a turn limit, then game length is determined by the following rules.

At the end of Turn 6 the last player to activate a model rolls a D20. On a result of 6-20 the weather holds and a 7th Turn is played.  On a result of 1-5 the scenario ends.

At the end of Turn 7, the last player to activate a model rolls a D20. On a result of 11-20 the temperature begins to drop, but there is still time, play an 8th Turn.  On a result of 1-10 the scenario ends.

 At the end of Turn 8 the warbands must find shelter or perish.  The scenario ends.

Please note that a scenario will immediately end if any one of the following conditions occurs:
1) The last Treasure Token is carried off the table; or
2) No model from any warband remains on the table; or
3) All of the models on the table (excluding uncontrolled Creatures) belong to a single warband


Last Warband Standing:
If a scenario ends because all of the models on the table (excluding uncontrolled Creatures) belong to a single warband and one or more unrecovered Treasure Tokens remain on the table, then the ‘last warband standing’ recovers one of the unrecovered Treasure Tokens. This Treasure Token is chosen by the ‘last warband standing’ and for the purposes of gaining experience points and determining the winner of the scenario this Treasure Token is treated as if it was recovered during the course of normal game play.  Recovering this Treasure Token does not trigger a Random Encounter roll.  


Victory Conditions:
Unless the scenario states otherwise, the warband that recovers the most Treasure Tokens wins the scenario.  If both warbands recover the same number of Treasure Tokens, the game is a draw.  In multi-player games, if two or more warbands ‘tie’ for the most Treasure Tokens recovered, then these warbands ‘draw’ and the remaining warbands lose the scenario.

[WallShadow]

Below are the rules that I use to address the issue that you described. It incentivizes getting Treasure Tokens off the table and lessens the reward one gets for tabling an opponent.

Very nice way of letting the game's atmosphere (pun intended) affect/control the length of the game, preventing "looting at leisure" by an uber-powerful munchkin-driven wizard.

[Azzabat]

I like the random weather roll after turns 6. I might throw that into our campaign. Our games rarely last beyond turn 6 however. By that time someones either gotten the treasure, or gotten themselves killed. (Or blown themselves up in the case of my Wizard!)  : )

[Sunjester]

We play that any treasure not already off table or physically being carried when the game ends is lost.

[Koyote]

I've also made some adjustments to the experience point system, some of which are intended to further incentivize interaction with Treasure Tokens. Below is the portion of my XP system that addresses Treasure Tokens.

Exploits
- Each Treasure Token recovered by any member of your warband: 50 xp
- Each unrecovered Treasure Token on your opponent’s half of the table at game’s end: 25 xp⁴
- If your warband wins the scenario: 50 xp
- If the scenario ends in a draw: 25 xp to each warband that ‘draws’ (SEE the Victory Conditions rule).

...

^4. A Treasure Token is ‘unrecovered’ if at game’s end the Treasure Token has not been taken off the table (i.e. recovered).   A Treasure token removed from the table under the Last Warband Standing rule is not an ‘unrecovered’ Treasure Token.  In multi-player games, the players should mutually agree beforehand on the boundaries that define each player’s portion of the table.

[Soss]

We have house ruled some things along the way. We roll starting turn 6 and add the turn number and on a 16+ the turn ends.

We say you get any treasure you control at the end of the game wether you get it off or not. All unclaimed treasure is lost.

We now have been playing with 5 treasures instead of 6 to make the odds of a winner greater. We saw the "5th" treasure which we usually put in the middle is worth two rolls on the treasure table. We then say the persons that gets the most treasure wins and that player gets 50 XP. We were getting a lot of tied games. We also don't count the reveal secret one towards who wins.

[ducat]

We had a 4 turn limit.

Only treasure taken off table gave experience.

Treasure that was held by a model on the table at end of game was counted as treasure but did not give experience.

Treasure that was not held by a model was not recovered.

This gave fast games that made the treasure recovery important, but plenty of carnage still ensued.

[Darkson71]

We play 5 turns with a 50/50 roll on whether there is a turn 6.
Any claimed treasure still on the table is kept on a 50/50 roll.
Any unclaimed treasure is lost.

[Coenus Scaldingus]

One of the players in our campaign also played this way. In the first two scenarios, he had killed off the entire opposing force, who apparently had been unable to secure treasure in the meantime (possibly also playing all-or-nothing). 12 treasure in two games had given him the highest level of the campaign, although the warband wasn't necessarily great as much money had to be invested in hiring new soldiers.
When I encountered him, the current scenario was the complex temple (fighting the columns), so even less incentive to actually try and claim the treasure. Think his band consisted of infantrymen and templars, with a single treasure hunter (the irony...) and a thug. Basically due to the theme of my force (wood elves), mine were archers (3), infantrymen (2), treasure hunters (2), a thief (1) and dog (kennel). While the infantrymen shielded my wizard from whatever could get near, the others either fired and fled or ran circles around him, grabbing treasure where possible. Wasn't really planned as such, but I somehow managed to avoid his groups (1 with either spellcaster), then converged on the apprentice with treasure hunter, infantrymen and previously bottled demon, killing all in there, securing some loot along the way. At the end, I left the table after having gotten 5 treasure (1 reveal secret), leaving him with two remaining - and many casualties (various buffs had now made his wizard >+10 Fight, and accompanied by two more soldiers, near-impossible to take on). As luck would have it, his apprentice and various soldiers died, and the amount of gold found wasn't even sufficient to cover all the costs.

Long story short, I'd expect that if all people play all-or-nothing, it is the choice of both players, one that will result in nothing for one party, and can be costly for both. If an opposing player does not wish to play this way, spells like telekinesis, leap, wall, mud, imp, poison dart etc. can be used to secure treasure or delay the enemy, allowing their band to take treasure and play the game how it's supposed to be played.

As I've said in other threads previously, I really do not like an arbitrary game limit. Some scenarios simply do not work out in X number of turns, and would require much playtesting to get right under different circumstances.

[mcfonz]

We play only treasure successfully off the board is won for sure. Any carried by a model within 6" at the end is kept on a 50/50 roll odds vs evens etc.

We also use a scatter die to determine treasure placement and are going to experiment with them not having to be 6" away from another treasure.

From what I can see a few treasures close to each other could make for quite an intense game.

We have had a lot of fun trying to get treasures out in the open!! We also feel that telekenesis probably needs to be a 10+ as basic. It's an incredibly useful/powerful spell.

When we didnt use the scatter dice it was possible to have treasure 9" away, use telekenesis on two of them using a wiz and apprentice and have two models waiting 3" from the board edge. Two treasures off turn 1. The only way to stop them was a tug of war with counter telekenesis before they are picked up.

[Thargor]

The way we interpreted the rules was that only treasure taken off the board is safely yours.  If it's still on the table, nobody owns it.

[ElOrso]

Hi,

Thanks for the feedback!

Some great idea's here that i'll have to discuss within my group.

With regards to treasure placement, we usually see that warbands focussed on mobility place treasure close to their own starting line and more covered behind terrain.
Offensive warbands tend to place them more towards the center and in the open, hoping to win the initial die roll , if they win they have forced the other player to cover a bigger distance in order to pick-up and secure treasure. If they win it' doesn't matter so much as they are moving across the board to get to the other anyway.
At least this is what i saw in the past.

I think with discounting unclaimed treasure (either fully or by a 50/50 roll) this would also be solved.