Is Progression too Fast?

[Magos Kasen]

Now that I think about it, the best analogy for levelling is actually Pokémon.
Levels in Pokémon incrementally increase stats and periodically allow new moves. The level cap is 100 and it usually takes until level 40 or more to really become 'powerful'.

It's not like a lot of RPGs where level ten represents a very experienced and powerful character.

I now want to make a Pokémon themed summoner warband...

[Vin21]

Joe, first off, loving the game, I've just got into wargaming and after jumping in at the deep end with WHFB 8th, Frostgrave is a nice change of pace!

From the games I've played, and others I've watched, I would say that progression is fine, but the amount of treasure you can get is a bit too high.

In the games I'm playing, we've limited what you can buy, so after each game you roll once on each of the potion/weapon & armour/items tables and can choose to buy only those if you wish, to try and limit cash abundant warbands from buying all the strong/powerful items.  But the flip side of that is now people have most of their treasure to spend on the warband, meaning that as long as soldiers don't die, after 5-6 games you can have a top tier warband.

I think a good mixture of the ideas on this board would work:
5 treasures - to remove the 3-3 stalemate
Less gc available - stop powerful warbands forming quickly
Limit the buying of items - as above
Soldier retainer - means that once you've got a high powered warband, you may have to fire some soldiers if you can't afford them

[rufus sparkfire]

I also think the rate of leveling is fine. I'd be disappointed if I didn't gain at least one level per game - as others have stated, each level doesn't do that much.

I don't really think the amount of treasure is excessive either.

[Eric the Shed]

I have commented on this in my initial comments thread but I thought I would chuck in my comments here as well...

Levelling can be too quick...

A simple way of reducing this pace might be to...

1. Reduce amount of treasure points (four might be better than six)
2. Alternatively reduce treasure experience from 50 to 30
3. Increase the experience required to advance each level to say 150

I also think if a figures health is reduced to -5 in a combat they are irrevocably dead - this means cash will need to spent replacing them later on in the game.

cheers
   

[Fencing Frog]

I think progression for Wizards is just fine as it is.  I do think you can top out your soldiers too easily and then they are static interchangable parts.  That doesn't seem realsonable to me, Soldiers should get better as the game goes along, or better types ought to be availble.  I had a set war band for abut 5 games untill I took high casulties and even then I only had to realy replace two soldiers of those I "lost."  I think we ought to be able to get elite soldiers either by purchasing them or by growing them by leveling up the existing classes.

[ImhotepMagi]

I'd consider dropping experience points altogether for a static progression:

-At the end of the game each wizard gains one level.
-If your wizard won the game he gains an extra level.
-If the opposing wizard was at least 5 levels higher than your wizard, gain an extra level.

In addition, choose one soldier in your warband. That soldier gains +1 to either Fight, Shoot, Health or Will. None of these stats can go past +5 with these bonuses, or 16 on the case of Health. You cannot improve the same soldier two games in a row.

I'd also make it so that you can't dismiss a soldier unless he is wounded or killed. That way you don't just load up on the expensive soldiers right away and have incentive to advance/keep the ones you have.

[Awesome Adam]

I like that the soldiers are generic and don't level up. It keeps the focus on the Wizards.

If you think there is any disparity between warbands now, soldiers getting better would only magnify the issue.

[Fencing Frog]

If you think there is any disparity between warbands now, soldiers getting better would only magnify the issue.

Thats a realy good point regarding the potential impact.   That said I think that soldiers are too disposible, a soldier who has been part of your team for 4 or 5 trips to Frostgrave should be more valuable than the new guy just hired off the street. 

In my own group I had suggested that a soldier who survived 3 trips to Frostgrave would get a +1 to Fight, Shoot, Will or Health.  We haven't exparimented with it but I think it gives a balance between making a veteran soldier more valuable but keeping the focus on the wizard.

[Eric the Shed]

I like the idea that Soldiers don't advance - however I do think there is some merit in creating more skillsets for some of these soldiers...

for example -

Thieves - ability to climb, hide in shadows, pick locks etc - perhaps these skills could be treated like spells, with a BCS and modified over time

Rangers - ability to track, better attacks versus animals

[Fencing Frog]

I like the idea that Soldiers don't advance - however I do think there is some merit in creating more skillsets for some of these soldiers...

for example -

Thieves - ability to climb, hide in shadows, pick locks etc - perhaps these skills could be treated like spells, with a BCS and modified over time

Rangers - ability to track, better attacks versus animals

Thats possible... though tracking doesn't seem to have a role in the game unless it shows up in the Litch lord book I am still waiting on.

[jp1885]

Regarding soldiers: IM(extremely)HO, the focus of the game is the wizard (AKA you, the player). It's all about his/her (your) quest for magical knowledge and experience.
Soldiers are nothing more than a tool. You break a screwdriver, you buy a new one. Your man-at-arms bites the dust, you hire someone else.
What I love about Frostgrave is the simplicity of the rules, which somehow create a myriad of possibilities. I wouldn't want to reduce that simplicity, or lose the focus on the wizard, by tracking the progression of other members of my warband.
I'd hate for the binding to go on my latest grimoire, but if thuggy the thug eats an elemental bolt... meh.

[Philhelm]

In my own group I had suggested that a soldier who survived 3 trips to Frostgrave would get a +1 to Fight, Shoot, Will or Health.  We haven't exparimented with it but I think it gives a balance between making a veteran soldier more valuable but keeping the focus on the wizard.

In another thread, I made the argument that people would exclusively choose Fight for increased chance of melee victory, melee damage, and ranged defense.  Archers would get Shoot, but I don't see people adding to Will or Health unless those are the only options or for fluff reasons.  The result, is that people will be running around with a bunch of +x Fight soldiers.  I don't think that this would add to the game, would provide further balancing problems, and would also increase the soldiers' power in relation to the wizard.  There would definitely be unintended side effects to allowing soldiers to level.

[Elbows]

While I'm okay with soldiers being disposable, perhaps not advancing (do prefer the Mordheim approach of "everybody is important") it's an easy couple of house-rules away.

I'd even be okay with paying soldiers per adventure - with a hiring fee.  Soldier survives three games w/o dying?  He can become a Serjeant or Captain (a special type of soldier who benefits from a "better" table when slain in combat, and becomes part of your warband permanently).  You could even limit it to three captains/serjeants per warband.  Allowing you to keep a select few special mercenaries.

Perhaps give them a single additional weapon slot or some kind of perk.  Again, all of this stuff is simple to make up some house-rules as long as your buddies approve.  I don't see any big Frostgrave competitive tournaments coming online anytime soon...so who cares what you do with the game?  You bought the book, go nuts. 

[Drachenklinge]

When I first look at the treasure table, I thought it was way to equal in getting good stuff. A one is the same probability then a twenty. It should be more along the line of 1-10 = 10 Gold / 11-17 = 50 Gold and scroll / 18-20 = 100 Gold and scroll and Grimoire. Well, that is extreme to make it clear.

Same with magic weapons, close to equal probabilities. More or less pure luck. Higher valus should be more rare ... 1-10 sword / 11-19 better sword / 20 best sword plus armour ... extreme, but You get the idea. The good and not so good stuff is to equally spread.

Same with injuries. It is nearly equaly possible to loose a toe vs loosing permanent strength.

Same with survival table. Here it is the most obvious.
Permanent injury, badly wounded and close call are all the same probabilty.
3-4 is not less likely then 7-8 with one d20.

Why not this
1 dead (1/20)
2-3 permanent injury (2/20)
4-6 badly wounded (3/20)
7-10 close call (4/20)
11-20 nothing (50% ^^)
or similar
That is not so much different in pure death and health, but far more in between.

So ... well ... don't get me wrong, please. I bought 15 new minis ie from otherworld, just to play that game. Planing to paint 3 gangs for playing, so not to use my Ronin anymore and leave them to there own harsh world in ancient Japan.  

[Vin21]

I quite like the idea of soldiers being easily replaceable (by their spookily similar looking siblings), as they are merely cannon fodder to the wizard, using everything in his capabilities to acquire more magical knowledge.

Lest us not forget the words of the renowned military strategist Captain Zapp Brannigan:
“I sent wave after wave of my own men at them until they reached their limit…”

But there does seem some appetite for people wanting to have some kind of reward system for long serving warband members, so echoing some previous comments on here I’d suggest that if a Soldier survives X amount of consecutive games, or gets X amount of kills in a game, rather than giving them an in-game stat bonus that would unbalance the game against other people, have them get a +1 to an injury & death roll.

This gives them a better, albeit only by a bit, chance to survive and stay within a warband, but doesn’t affect the gameplay at all.  And let’s not forget Joe has mentioned that in the Sellsword supplement we’ll be getting access to a Captain that will be a more customisable Soldier.