Skirmish Potential, Indochina vs. Rhodesia?

[NickNascati]

All,
      Both of the above are periods which I know a bit about, and have a along standing interest in.  I have become a big fan of the Songs of... game system and have Flying Lead on order.  That being said, which of the above conflicts do you think offer the greater potential for squad versus squad level actions?  My inclination is to say Rhodesia, as most of the the Indochina War seems to have been large actions.  Either choice would be gamed in 28mm.
                                                                      Nick

[NurgleHH]

Nick,
Do both, so you Do Not have to make a decision. The Song of...-System is Not the best Choice I think. For real skirmish I think "Operation squad" is the Beter Choice.

[Etranger]

All,
      Both of the above are periods which I know a bit about, and have a along standing interest in.  I have become a big fan of the Songs of... game system and have Flying Lead on order.  That being said, which of the above conflicts do you think offer the greater potential for squad versus squad level actions?  My inclination is to say Rhodesia, as most of the the Indochina War seems to have been large actions.  Either choice would be gamed in 28mm.
                                                                      Nick

There is plenty of scope for small scale actions in Indochina. Either conflict will give you similar opportunity.

[Arlequín]

I beg to disagree... as far as my own opinion goes at least.  

Indochina was a platoon and company conventional war in the main... barring section security patrols and the like, they didn't wander about in small units. In fact the French avoided leaving the roads as much as possible.

Rhodesia for the most part saw very small groups (6-16) of guerrillas pitted against little more than sections for much of the conflict. In fact until you get to the Mid-70s it would be very hard to justify putting a platoon of anything on the table in a Rhodesia game. Even a 'Fire-force' op, which was pretty much a platoon in itself, would be spread over several hundred yards of bush, chasing down maybe two or three terrs at a time... up to about 1976. Obviously 'externals' were big affairs, but the bulk of contacts were small.

After 1976 it got big of course... but for a game of the size of 'Flying Lead' for example, Rhodesia up to 1975 fits to a tee.  

[mikedemana]

I agree that both of these periods are very flexible...

You could game both larger and smaller scale fights. I have a set of rules I'll be publishing within a year that is fast-play and in a scale where each player commands 4-5 squads (around 30 figs).

Mike Demana
www.firstcommandwargames.com

[Happy Wanderer]

I'd agree with Arlequin on Rhodesia over Indochine regards skirmish games. Mercifully both periods are covered by superb figure ranges.

I used Flying Lead in a Rhodesian game set in the 1966...Op Yodel. Game went well in my view.

http://agrabbagofgames.blogspot.com.au/2014/02/operation-yodel-sep-1966-zambesi-valley.html

Operation Squad as a system may be worth a look as well though I've not played that game.

Happy W

[CarlLeyland]

I really enjoyed the battle report and the figures, scenery etc were amazing. Very good work and enlightening on this rarely gamed conflict.

[commissarmoody]

Play both.

[macgarns]

If I may suggest you a book and a movie by Pierre Schoendoerffer , about a platoon with french and laotian warriors. Plenty of skirmish scenarios.( the autor was at Dien Bien Phu, so you can expect some real life combats ... )
And no this war was not only fought on roads ( ... )  as there were operations on the Mekong, seing the french navy delivering navy commandoes or french foreign legion on missions, as well as trying to get them back ! ( search for Dinassaut  ) .
So I would say plenty of opportunities to play skirmish with this conflict, and with a nice occasion of collecti'g different minis  depicting the various units involved ( french and suppletives )
Hope it helps,
Fred

[commissarmoody]

If I may suggest you a book and a movie by Pierre Schoendoerffer , about a platoon with french and laotian warriors. Plenty of skirmish scenarios.( the autor was at Dien Bien Phu, so you can expect some real life combats ... )
And no this war was not only fought on roads ( ... )  as there were operations on the Mekong, seing the french navy delivering navy commandoes or french foreign legion on missions, as well as trying to get them back ! ( search for Dinassaut  ) .
So I would say plenty of opportunities to play skirmish with this conflict, and with a nice occasion of collecti'g different minis  depicting the various units involved ( french and suppletives )
Hope it helps,
Fred

Suggest away. I would love to read more about this conflict. Can you suggest by name a few of  Pierre Schoendoerffer books or movies to watch? My internet search is pretty weak at the moment.

[macgarns]

Oops sorry I mentioned a book without giving it's title! It's called " la 317e section ' . It's as much intersting to read the book as to watch the movie because they were made by the same guy.
I don't know if they has been translated ou dubbed.
Fred

[NickNascati]

Commissarmoody,  Unless I do it im 15mm, it some or the other.

[carlos marighela]

In part I suppose it depends on what you mean by skirmish. For me a skirmish is anything up to about a platoon + per side. Say 20-40 figures.

Rhodesia or for that matter the Portuguese bush wars or Indonesian Confrontation are ideal for this being wars where the ambush is the primary tactic.

That said, there are plenty of examples of small independent unit actions in Indochina. Leaving aside the irregular native commando columns the French utilised, you can also play out attacks n parts of the De Lattre  line or on local forces holed up in those small tower posts that dotted much of the country. There's an excellent study by the US Army on French operations that goes into good detail and provides excellent diagrams of the evolution of these posts. You can also play out a famous scene from Graham Greene's The Quiet American, where Fowler and Pyle's car breaks down and they hole up in a tower with its local garrison.

Of course even in larger operations, forces do break down into smaller chunks. A company attack may feature a platoon one up as its spearhead. You just have to rationalise there being flanking or supporting units beyond the width/length of your table and then of course in every war there are clearing patrols, standing patrols, fighting patrols etc of section to platoon size.

No reason why either war shouldn't be suitable for skirmish type games. I have forces for the Portuguese and for Indochina. Actually Indochina is the only period where I have forces in both 15mm and 28mm.