Correct Flags for British and British Indian Cavalry?

[joekano]

Hi All,

  I have some WWI cavalry (British and Indian troops) coming from Brigade Games that I'll be using for both Back of Beyond battles and WWI East Africa. The command packs for both include one figure to hold a flag.  My question is what would be appropriate flags to use? 

I initially assumed the Indians would carry the following:


And the British:


However, I wasn't sure if I instead needed to use regimental flags instead such as this:


If someone with more knowledge could advise, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks!
Chris

[Mike Blake]

Chris

Sorry to disappoint you but they didn't generally carry standards any more...

From 1858 when the British Crown took over the administration of India from the East India Company, the colours of the Indian regiments were in general conformity to the British regulations.

Cavalry standards were abolished in the Indian Army in 1864, but some exceptions were made, mainly for regiments awarded extra honorary standards or guidons.

Colours and standards were no longer carried into battle by British units, but were carried on parade (causing a problem of the lack of flags for identification and marking captured positions eg in the Boxer Uprising).

Indian Army Lance pennons were swallow-tailed, the upper half being red and the lower half dark blue in Bengal and white in all other regiments.

[joekano]

Thanks Mike! That would explain why I was having trouble finding flag information. Odd that Brigade would put such figures in the command pack, but I'll just use the lance pennons then.

One other question if you happen to know: for the Indian turbans, would they be completely khaki, or have any color on them? I've seen some people paint the cone portion red, but wasn't sure if that was correct. I plan on fielding the 17th Cavalry/ 37th Lancers (Pathan and Punjabi Muslims) if that helps.

Thanks again!

Chris

[Mike Blake]

I do have the info on all the IA turbans etc, but probably by the time you are planning to play games set in they would have been all khaki...but there were regimental difference. I'll dig it out and post.

[joekano]

I'd be greatful!

[marianas_gamer]

This link on Indian Army turbans was recently posted on TMP
http://www.militarysunhelmets.com/2013/turbans-of-the-indian-army
I hope that it helps.
LB

[Phil Robinson]

Put a Union flag on it Sir, finial counters and naysayers be damned says I

[fitterpete]

I'd like to see any info on turbans myself as I'm currently painting 2nd Afghan war Indian units.
My uniforms are not historical but are based on historical  uniforms and any ideas would be helpful.
Pete

[joekano]

Thanks LB - very interesting!

[Mike Blake]

17th/37th Cavalry from Y W Carmen Indian Army cavalry:

This loss of cavalry regiments was made up a few years later when on 8 September 1885 the 17th Regiment of Bengal Cavalry was re-raised at Mian Mir under Colonel E. H. E. Kauntze.  The uniform was to be blue with blue facings, in fact the same as that of the 12th Bengal Cavalry (History, p.18) and the weapons were the sabre and carbine with the Mackenzie equipment modified.  The facings were almost immediately changed to white.

The 1886 dress regulations give the usual regulations the only exceptions being that the uniform was blue, faced white with gold lace and that the Mackenzie equipment was worn by all ranks.  Khaki kurtas were in general use in Ambala c. 1886 and several years later the short khaki coat was adopted (History, p.23).  A photograph of a Risaldar-Major (Navy and Army Illustrated, 1897) shows the blue kurta laced around the standing collar and traced around the small-buttoned chest opening.  Each side of the chest were five groups of ornamental tracing shaped somewhat like Christmas trees.  The shoulder-chains carried the abbreviated regimental title.  The plain gold pouch belt went over the left shoulder and the waist belt had two normal sword slings for the steel sword and scabbard.  The kummerbund was blue with like stripes the lungi.  The 1900 edition of Whitaker's Naval and Military Directory states that the pugri was dark blue, worn with a white kullah.  On 17 May 1900, (I.A.C. no. 58) the regiment became Lancers but no change took place in the officer's uniform until a few years later.  The pennons on the lances were blue and white, colours, which were retained until the end of the regiment's existence.  The lancer dress for British officers was reminiscent of the British 17th Lancers but the plastron was not worn, only the turned-down lapels.  The pouch belt had a special plate to hold the pickers; this had the devices of the crescent and star over 'XVII'.  The normal lancer lines and girdle were worn and the blue overalls had double white stripes.  The full dress pouch and pouch belt were worn in undress and the horse's throat-plume was white.  Another distinction in the 1901 dress regulations was that the 17th had a blouse, lungi and kummerbund as for Bengal Cavalry.  From photographs, this would appear to be as that described for the Risaldar-Major of 1897 but with a standing white collar and only three pairs of 'tree' ornaments on the chest.  The device of the star and crescent with the regimental number was worn on the waist-belt plate and on the pouch.

A unique feature of this regiment was the mounted pipe band, which was in being from about 1895 to 1902.  There was a kettle-drummer and six pipers all mounted on white horses.  Photographs do not show any unusual details of dress but the drum banner is very striking with its devices of a large crescent and star between the horns with 'BC' at an angle.

In 1903, the unit was again re-named, this time the 17th Cavalry - with the same distinctions.  The 1913 dress regulations place the 17th Cavalry with the Lancer uniforms and single out variations like the light dragoon pouch with silver flap, the straight-necked spurs for levee dress and the white throat ornament for the horse.  The badges and devices no longer carry lances, only the star and crescent, the 'XVII' and 'Cavalry'.  The kurta is usually shown in pictures, not only the full dress one mentioned before but a simpler version.  In this, the gold tracing is around the collar and the three-buttoned front opening.  The dark blue lungi with light blue and gold was worn as was the kummerbund, which was a lighter blue than the kurta, but striped gold and blue like the lungi.  The chains and pickers continued on the pouch belt as did the white silk centre stripes on the belts and the white horse ornament.

In 1922, the 17th Cavalry amalgamated with the 37th Lancers as the 15th Lancers.

[Mike Blake]

fitterpete
Can you be a little more specific - what sort of info on turbans are you after? I have notes on many specific regts but you say you are not doing historical?

[joekano]

Thanks for the additional info Mike! Based on your earlier post, I’m assuming the dark blue pargri would have been replace with khaki when they were in the field, correct?  Would the khulla have still remained white?

Lastly, for the blue and white pennons, is there any indication of which color was on top?

Thanks again for the help!

Chris

[Mike Blake]

Yes, that was the idea but some khaki turbans had coloured ends at least initially, as on the dress turban...so even if you go with khaki you could still have a coloured end. I confess I have given my khaki clad IA cavalry FD turbans, which whilst stretching the point for service dress might well have been the case for garrison or marching order. It is the best way to distinguish between regiments on the table!

Lance Pennons - Lower blue as in my first post, where I should have explained that the rule for pennon colours given there had some regimental exceptions...like almost every other rule!

I also agree with Phil R actually - why not give them a Union flag. Many regiments acquired them in order to mark positions they captured, as happened in the Boxer Uprising. One IA infantry unit actually went into battle carrying a White Ensign loaned to it by a naval officer!

[joekano]

Thanks again for the help Mike! Glad I checked with you on the pennon color layout.  I had seen a drawing of a blue and white one for the 2nd Bengal Lancers and the blue was on top, so would have used that as a reference and done it backwards.

I’ll give the turban modifications some thought (along with the flag) and see if I can create something that is historically reasonable but still looks good on the table. I’m not above ahistorical flourishes to make things look better on the table.

Chris

[fitterpete]

Mike
I was looking just looking for more images/color schemes/what part to paint what type info.
When I say not historical I mean they are 2nd Afghan war figures but I'm using inspiration from earlier and later periods  to make them interesting.I love the uniforms but don't like plain old khaki so they are getting more colorful dress unis or non campaign treatment. Using them for  early Victorian fantasy.
Thanks,Pete