Worst game ever - a warning

[dijit]

Codex creep is a fact, especially with many of the older codexes. My imperial guard are now useless on the battlefield after a combination of the new edition, new marine codex, new eldar codex, and especially the new ork codex were a standard is ork is the same points as a guardsman (go figure!), etc. The humble guardsman has no chance.  I also don't like that I can now only field my huge harlequin army together with other eldar, or my legion of the damned with other marines, and don't get my started about my squat army... Unfortunately the move towards tournament play has limited alot of what was possible with an otherwise good system.
I've been in the game for 17years now, seen and played every edition, have got many of the codexes, and still waiting for GW to open the possiblities to do some of the crazy stuff hinted at in the 'fluff'.

[Ramshackle_Curtis]

"Games Workshop, like most large companies, has learned that controlling the user experience is one of their most important business strategies. Also that it's not worth their time, manpower, and ensuing grief to put out books/articles/rules that allow customers to "make their own fun". Unless it's like Apocalypse and it lets them sell alot of models."

Well, except that GW has been losing money for 3 years. How about the fact that they dont release new units(the orks got helipcopters, the first new unit in 10 years!)?

As the the topic, Im a 40k player. Im actually quite good at it, I usually keep up to date on the rules and codecies. I love it! But it is a crap game. It is totally unbalaced and there are lots of wierd rules that are totally counter intuitive. I lived with some GW employees and used to get thier old models, so I have a BIG tyranid army. On the table though, I only ever use genestealers and units that I have tailored for specific uses(that is, only a tiny part of the tropp types that are available). However, along comes a new edition and nurfs some of the special rules(rending) and the army becomes almost uplayable. Its a shame that most units are not worth having in an army, that the special rules get in the way, that vehicles are totally undamagable to some units but will pop if another unit sneezez at them.

I dunno, I quite like power gaming. I always play against veteran gamers and so we all know the rules and have our armies set up for killy death. It plays a bit like the army generation is the main part of the game. If you come to the table with the wrong army you have lost from the beginning. But in the end, its such a simplistic game that you CAN work out all the probabilities of hitting, wounding vs points cost. The actual game is just an engine to prove who can make the best force!

[Gluteus Maximus]

It all seems to point to it being a game I wouldn't want to play....

......except that my son loves it, so needs me to help him learn how to play 

Such is life 

[Bako]

It's not surprising the new rules suck. I haven't played 40k since my 3rd edition Valhallan IG army. Now though I just buy some of the miniatures here and there because I like them, and stuff. The miniatures are great, the game itself, not so much so.

[wolfgangbrooks]

Scurv: "Shockforce also won the court case so I doubt your claim is correct."

Yeah, because winning a court case means 100% that you're innocent. Just like the winning politician in an election is the best qualified for the job. You can like whatever you want, but I take issue with your definition of "better" and "different". I've seen them in person as well and passed. Their tech Native Americans are really neat however.

Ramshackle_Curtis: "Well, except that GW has been losing money for 3 years."

I would argue that it has more to do with the pricing on their metal models and the standard size of their armies dissuading people from starting playing. Maybe video games as well, fantasy and sci-fi games seem to play to alot of similar tropes. (an many video game makers seem to be GW fans...coincidence?) And they've had a number of competitors which can match them in rules and figures in the mainstream.

After all, take a look at Warmachine. There's no room in those rules for non-official stuff and they're going very strong apparently. It is also a tournament-centric game where you can make silver bullet armies. In fact, that's pretty much the point of the game.

Don't forget that GW also supports it's own factories, stores, packaging, marketing, customer service, magazines, IT department, research and development, management, and full-time sculptors, writers, and artists. As well as all the benefits, wages, and overheads all those take up. It could very well be that they are too big for the current market. Or just very inefficiently run.

Oh, and the deffkoptas are not new units. They were in the 3rd edition Kult of Speed army rules in the Battle for Armaggedon booklet I believe, this is just the first new model of them since the Gorkamorka special character.

dljit:"and still waiting for GW to open the possiblities to do some of the crazy stuff hinted at in the 'fluff'."

They've said that due to their economic problems that they are consolidating the armies and models they produce instead of trying to go out on a limb as they had in the past with mini-codexes. But they seem to be pushing the army lists to be much more flexible with "take this leader and get different army restrictions and bonuses". Like in the new space marine codex taking a captain mounted on a bike lets you make your entire army bike mounted instead of just the fast attack slots. It's conceivable that whatever you want to do with an army can be simply done with a counts-as type of thing.

If people must insist on liking squats, (for the love of zeus why would you ) they could be done with specially selected ork or guard armies. And other aliens being whatever other army they would be closest to mechanics wise. Though I've had this discussion with someone who was apparently intellectually incapable of dealing with anything less than officially official army lists for his squats/robot legions/whatever that where 20 years out of print. I hope better for these boards given the direction of the topic.

[Keith]

I must admit I was quite impressed by the new rules ... but then again I've no interest in tournament play, will ditch anything that I don't fancy and add anything that I think is missing (as I would with any rule-set). As a mechanic I think it all works ok and the 'gothic-teenaged-angst' fluff is good fun and well designed.

Having said that there are a lot of greater draws on my gaming time but I'd certainly play the odd game.

[Geudens]

Don't forget that GW also supports it's own factories, stores, packaging, marketing, customer service, magazines, IT department, research and development, management, and full-time sculptors, writers, and artists. As well as all the benefits, wages, and overheads all those take up. It could very well be that they are too big for the current market. Or just very inefficiently run.

You might have a point there: can GW be efficiently run with this combination of overheads and keep prices to a lower level?  I don't think so.  Most other companies in the business are either parttime or involve parttime or outsourcing, be it for one or more steps in the process, making them more flexible in economic dire straits.  I for one buy (nearly) all my stuff from the manufacturers (except a real Ebay bargain now and then...), but I never bought a GW item (except paint) at the full price.  There is more than enough on the second hand market or available from discount E-stores.  I don't like 40K as such, but just use their miniatures (bought at a discount...).  This means that a major part of GW (rules development & printed stuff) does not get a penny from me and on top of that the major part of my purchases go to private people's pockets (via Ebay) who might (or might not) re-invest in GW.  On the other hand, if I buy from e.g. Olley's armies, the whole of the profit goes to that company (with small overheads).

I do realise that I'm not a factor at all in GW's turnover  , but on the other hand I suppose I'm a welcome customer for Olley's who doesn't have to worry much about the issue of changing rules, codexes etc every year to keep me (been wargaming for 35 years) interested.  Just adding new figures will keep me as a customer.  So that's overheads and scale of business wargameswise in a nutshell...

Rudi

[Ramshackle_Curtis]

Its very interesting this thread. I think as a bland main strem game, 40k is totally ok. Im not sure I think that the GW marketting policy is the greatest, but mines not either!

The thing with warhammer is that even if the new rules mean that you end up not being able to use your fav units, you just have to wait 10 years and they will be game legal again! I kid you not, this has recently happened with the chaos army book, I can now take my champion on manticore again after 10 years rest......

[Commander Vyper]

Its very interesting this thread. I think as a bland main strem game, 40k is totally ok. Im not sure I think that the GW marketting policy is the greatest, but mines not either!

The thing with warhammer is that even if the new rules mean that you end up not being able to use your fav units, you just have to wait 10 years and they will be game legal again! I kid you not, this has recently happened with the chaos army book, I can now take my champion on manticore again after 10 years rest......

Time to add my two pennyth's worth.

Whether I started miniature collecting with WFB 2nd edition or AD&D seems to blur now but anyway WFB and then Rogue Trader were the two biggest 'hooks' for me in relation to wargaming. Then Space Marine (Epic) came out and it was the background that inspired me to play, (still love the Heresy stuff having just power read through Battle for the Abyss and Mechanicum in less than a week).

Anyway, I never touched 2nd edition 40k, came back to third for a bit and then that's it really, not gamed for at least 6-7 years  (bloody hell!), now collect, paint and convert.

Any wargaming system will have its faults, same as any system will have its power players and beardies ready to pounce on unspecting newbies. Fact of life that the 'My armies better/bigger/fluffier than yours' sells product.

The problem I've always had with GW is in respect of the business driving the hobby. Shareholders don't want to see a rulessystem set and working well for 10+ years, they want to see redunancy built into the product so you have to go and at least buy a new rulebook/codex and 'must have' unit(s) on a regular basis to ensure turnover.

Smaller companies will built on the foundation, GW will just try to build new foundations, (they don't really care about veteran gamers as they are usually the ones moaning about the fact that they remember when all this was fields, when you got 5 figures for £2.50, when eldar dreadnaughts were £3.50 a blister etc....) with new players and more importantly NEW figures.

I remember about 3 years ago when in a copy of white dwarf, they were clearly trying to keep people from buying on figures on 'popular auction sites' and accusing anyone of having old figures for sale of piracy, organised crime and animal flicking! In the same breath they then went onto to say that you couldn't enter araby, nippon or cathay figures in GD comps anymore as and get this, 'they hadn't designed those parts of the warhammer world yet??!!!!  . Well not that decade anyway!

So where's my rambling going then.... erm I suppose that as an entry into wargaming GW still serves a purpose, and many that dable in GW products go onto other bigger and better things, (although possibly with less spikey bits and a few less skulz (tm)).



Vyper

[dodge]

So where's my rambling going then.... erm I suppose that as an entry into wargaming GW still serves a purpose, and many that dable in GW products go onto other bigger and better things, (although possibly with less spikey bits and a few less skulz (tm)).

Thats about where I am in this debate as one of those graduates onto something different or perhaps not so different.

dodge

[Hasslefriesian]

....It could very well be that they are too big for the current market. Or just very inefficiently run.

The latter.

....If people must insist on liking squats, (for the love of zeus why would you )

Because the short will inherit the Earth!

Most people I know with stunty scifi armies use, as you suggest, Imperial Guard Codex's.

[knitemare]

I'm not sure why a lot of other people play GW games, but I play them for convenience mostly.  I don't really know how big the war gaming community is in other countries, but where I live it is really difficult to find independent groups.  I play Lord of the Rings (GW version) and WFB almost exclusively.  I played D&D for many years, but after that group broke up I didn't have anyone to game with for nearly 10 years.

As it is now, I can walk into the GW Chicago Battle Bunker (big GW store in the states) and get a game almost anytime.  I don't know anyone that plays any other war/strategy games and, therefore, I am out of luck.  I would love to find a group that was willing to play Old West, Pirate, and modern army games.  After searching for a regular group for nearly a year I feel lucky that I have Games Workshop to fall back on.

[Braxandur]

The thing with warhammer is that even if the new rules mean that you end up not being able to use your fav units, you just have to wait 10 years and they will be game legal again! I kid you not, this has recently happened with the chaos army book, I can now take my champion on manticore again after 10 years rest......

You lucky....   I still have a champion on Chimerea and one on a Griffon...  The poor sods are already waiting for ages as well.

Ow and my 2 cents for the running discussion.
I loved 2nd edition 40k. though there were a lot os small strange rules, the major appeal of the game was the fact that is was at times more like a skirmish game instead of a game with big armies. Then came 3rd edition and they lost me.

4th..  well I bought it, but can't say anything else.

And although I heard some good thing about the new edition, since I read here that you both need to make killer armies to get a nice game is somewhat annoying (I know, you acan also try to make two balanced armies, but I know few people capable of making fun armies)

I'm already for quite a while looking for a system that can heal my 40k itch since I still like the models (well at least the olders ones in my cabinet ), certainly like the background, but just don't like the rules that much. Warzone and Void did a good job for a while, but never found the game that can give me the "happy feeling" that 2nd edition gave.

Will take a look at warengine though, thanks for the link!

[Arlequín]

I'd just like to throw in my support for the GW terrain. At 30 Ilbs in weight, along with the figure cases for the game etc, the average gamer will now be toting close on 70 Ilbs.

The calorie expenditure for moving this stuff around, plus the fact that people will actually want to carry it around, makes it competively priced compared to most gym memberships.

Not only has GW proved a boon to the gaming industry, it is going all the way in reducing the Western World's obesity problems.

 

[Gluteus Maximus]

I'd just like to throw in my support for the GW terrain. At 30 Ilbs in weight, along with the figure cases for the game etc, the average gamer will now be toting close on 70 Ilbs.

The calorie expenditure for moving this stuff around, plus the fact that people will actually want to carry it around, makes it competively priced compared to most gym memberships.

Not only has GW proved a boon to the gaming industry, it is going all the way in reducing the Western World's obesity problems.

 

Did you use to work for tony Blair, by any chance?