When does paint add value?

[Golgotha]

Been thinking, (which is normally a bad idea), about the value paint adds to our minis and come up with a few questions? Namely;

Does it, add value?
To what standard does a mini need to be painted for the value to increase?
What is pro painted? Which is a daft question but there must be some way to gauge it? Are there other criteria for example one does see tabletop standard.
Should some minis that are collectable and or rare simply not be painted?
Do you buy painted minis or have you bought painted minis? Why/why not. I have not but then they tend to cost more unless badly painted and I love nothing more than restoring some old neglected mini.
To what extent can one make a living from painting minis.

etc... hope to generate some interesting discussion.

[Zoggin-eck]

Painted adds absolutely nothing to me, so is worth much less in my eyes. It takes away the biggest part of the hobby and is a chore to take off to repaint.

Regardless of quality, I can't stand using or displaying a model that someone painted. Even if it's better than what I can do myself! The exception would be if it were painted by someone I know (for example, my partner's first painted models I hang on to even if she'd rather paint them again) or as part of a painted model trade/swap. Basically, if there's emotional attachment it adds value.

As for buying them, I'll occasionally buy some if cheap enough or something I really want (I usually have several jam jars of models being stripped at any time) but I usually end up regretting it. Stripping and fixing up models is no fun for me. In the time it takes to get something ready to paint, I could have painted a new model, for example.

I may be an exception since the "arty" side is more important than the gaming side (and the gaming side drives me on when I'm losing interest in painting) but I can totally see why some people would buy a painted army or hire someone to paint one. I think it's awesome that some people can do it for a living!

That said...

I sometimes feel guilty if a model/unit has clearly been given a lot of love and effort. Sometimes you'll see something that was probably from someone really young, and you know they were probably amazing in their eyes

Should some minis that are collectable and or rare simply not be painted?

I've said it before: I'm always torn between being overly precious about "ruining" a particularly rare or supposedly collectible model, and feeling that toys are supposed to be played with!
I've sold plenty of models that I kept in mint condition and was too scared to assemble/cut up, only to get very little money for them despite the condition and wish I really had just enjoyed them years ago.

[Captain Blood]

Yes painting adds value. If a bare miniature is worth one to two pounds GBP, then even a crudely painted and based version of that figure on eBay will sell for three or four pounds GBP.
Well painted miniatures will sell for several times that. Single miniatures by top painters routinely sell for 15 - 40 pounds GBP on eBay. So clearly some people will pay a lot of money for painting.

No there's no definition of 'pro painting', other than someone who claims they are painting professionally - i.e. Making money out of it. But then, as in all walks of life, trying to make money out of something does not mean one is any good at it. It's not a qualification. Most of the stuff I see advertised as 'pro painted' on eBay is average at best: in many cases downright poor. But then, if one is not a very good painter oneself, then poor to averagely painted figures probably look like desirable works of art worth paying a premium for.

But if you're looking for decent quality professional painting, you have to shop around and expect to pay a minimum of seven or eight pounds a figure. Most good professional painters charge more than that.

Most of the people I know personally who do paint figures professionally and to a high standard, including some very fine painters here on LAF, would probably tell you better than me, that its not really a living as most people would understand it.

Personally, given the time it takes to paint a miniature to a high standard, I cannot possibly see how you can make a living out of it. But I'm glad some people do, because even though I'm a good painter myself, I do sometimes end up paying others to do stuff for me, because I simply can't keep up with everything I would like painted 

[Thargor]

Models painted by somebody else are something that I wouldn't normally buy (unless I'm able to strip the paint off). I really enjoy painting my miniatures and get a sense of pride when I put MY figures on a table for a game.  I can see why some would buy painted minis and why people pay others to paint their armies, if they don't enjoy painting, or don't have the time.

Does it, add value?
To what standard does a mini need to be painted for the value to increase?

A mini is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

What is pro painted?

 

Well, that has been discussed quite hotly on this forum and others.  Technically if you get paid to paint figures, you're a pro painter.  However, I think we all expect the quality to be pretty good.

[Sterling Moose]

I used to be a staunch advocate of painting all my own figures.  I'd get a buzz from the feeling of pride when someone comments on how nice your game looks, how nice the figures look, "did you paint these?", "Yes".  I always attempt to go for the wow factor with my games - great looking figures, great terrain.

However that was then and this is now. Now I find myself with way less time to get my projects onto the table.  My lead mountain is large and my time to reduce it is small.  I consider myself a competent painter but so, so slow.

So, now, when I can afford it I now pay others to paint for me.  The standards vary as does the price but if need be I don't mind going over bits that need tweaking.  I find it more time efficient going over selective parts of a figure rather than starting with a bare metal figure.

I still go for the Wow factor but it's sum of all parts now rather than just bits I created myself.  To me paint certainly does add value not just resale/sale value of the figures but the value is in time saved and getting projects onto the table which otherwise would be part of my estate sale once I'm done.

[Elbows]

I'd say it does add value.  I was shocked when I sold off a few dungeon adventurers maybe...six years back.  Painted to a rather poor standard and they went for something like $50.  I think there are a LOT of people out there without the time/equipment/skills to paint...or the patience.

I don't have the money to buy nicely painted miniatures, and I can't paint that well myself, but I can paint as good/better than probably 50-60% of the stuff I see.  So, for me to buy something it'd have to be better than mine and cheap-ish.  If I had the funds I'd gladly send my stuff off to be painted.  I simply don't have the money.

I don't buy stuff other people have painted before because normally it doesn't work with my basing/aesthetic I'm using for my projects.  That being said, I'd have no qualms sending stuff off to be painted in the colours I'd prefer and then simply base them myself.

I've known several people who used to paint for a living.  They were extremely competent (Golden Demon winners etc.).  I do think  you'd risk getting tired of painting or struggle to paint your own figures if you did that (it's always dangerous to turn a hobby into a job).  My one buddy did make an excellent living doing it.

[Dim_Reaper]

It depends what you mean by value. The problem with this industry is that no person's values exactly match up with another's. We have different tastes in models, different views over what makes a ruleset, whether or not a ruleset is necessary at all, how controlling it should be, what the best material for the miniatures should be, whether painting them quickly is a virtue, whether using unpainted models is an offence punishable by death, whether house rules are acceptable or whether rules need to be followed exactly and so on and so on.

It's a big problem that leads to GW's pricing, to Mantic using awful restic, and to the generally divided and poorly connected consumer base, almost nothing is possible. Anybody can make anything available at any price tag, and somebody will buy it at that price. It often becomes a point of justification, "well, I sold it for that..." used by big corporates in financial statements, their staff to angry customers and bad painters on forums. But it's no justification for anything: there are so many variables, and so many different kinds of hobbyist out there, that at best, it says some gamers just don't have any standards. I'm pretty prepared to believe that, GW are still in business, after all, but gamers wont just tolerate anything. There still has to be some standards, or otherwise the whole thing collapses. It makes me think of Yoram Bauman's comedy skit of the Ten Principles of Economics, where two of them boil down to the maxims that: (1) people are stupid, but (2) people aren't that stupid.

The fact is that the value (or lack thereof) of painted miniatures has too many facets. It's a divisive issue. It's already caused rifts in my "mature" gaming group. A lot of gamers will not (or are at least reluctant to) use models that they do not themselves themselves own and/or have themselves painted. Some people are quicker than others. I'm quite slow, but on a good day I'd say my quality is above average. I hate doing it, but I also wouldn't let anyone else paint my models. I've commissioned a gaming board, but my main mistake was paying someone £50 to base my Dark Elf army. They were... awful.

Even if we remove past experience of unsatisfactory commissions, the point is, some people just want to play, and don't really care too much about the hobby aspect. Those people are the sort of people who convince crap painters that they have a future. Well they evidently do if they find someone who is more concerned with just having painted stuff, than exactly how well it is done. For them it's the value of not being criticised for not having fully painted miniatures (as a side note, I really hate people who do that, and they so often suck at painting). Myself, I would rather use unpainted models until I have all of the materials together to paint them properly. Working up enthusiasm to paint though, is difficult. I'd much rather do any other part of the hobby.

Regarding whether or not you can live off it, I've been involved in forum posts regarding commission, and the answer I've always seen every time is that yes, just, but it wont be big cash and you will have to work your arse off for it. Constantly painting loads of figures to a consistent standard. I know for a fact that there's no chance that I would even consider that viable. People can make it work, but most people use it as pocket money. It's a way to help fund the hobby. In a way, it tends to only really support itself. But I've had a friend who has sold his own armies over the years (I'll talk more about him later) and he always seems to manage to sell his army which helps fund his next hobby project. The trick though, according to Commission Painters, is making profit over what it cost you to buy. Most poorly painted sellers don't manage that.

I've seen quite a few spats in my time online regarding Commission painting. In a lot of cases, it boils down to someone posting up a thread enquiring about commission, what money could they make, and here's a picture or two. The responses will come in from existing commission painters, and they can be frequently blunt, and just as frequently met with hostility for being blunt. If you want to do it sustainably, it has to be at a good standard, and Commission painters can be very hostile to the possibility of bad commission painters rising through the woodwork.

As far as grading goes, a good litmus test was mentioned by a commission painter on my forum once, and I remembered it (why I have no idea, I could never be a commission painter): using average vote grades on CMON as a gauge: of at least 6 for tabletop, 7-8 for pro painted, and 9+ for competition work. The poster was called Winterdyne or something like that if memory serves. As grading scales go, I do like the 7-8 for what qualifies as "pro painted". As Captain Blood says, there's a tonne of "pro painted" lots on ebay that are painted appallingly.

The friend I mentioned earlier is also really bad for using the term "pro painted" in his ebay sales. His rationale is, he's a painter and decorator, and he used to be a staffer (and he's had stuff in GW cabinets as a result). I have to say he's generally a pretty poor painter. What he does tends to be about what I would call lower end tabletop level. He's mostly, but not completely neat, he uses inks (which helps) but he doesn't use many additional paints, he paints on thickly, and his idea of a fancy painting technique is drybrushing. He gets really upset if I say anything though, in spite of the fact that he's quick to being critical of others.

Like I said, everything in this industry is very subjective, even what is good. I'd say my standards are quite stringent, but I hang around on forums where the average quality tends to be pretty high.

[Momotaro]

The  biggest "cost" in minis painting is the time you put into it - for me, any neat painting with sensible colours and some shading is worth something.

Plenty of halfway decent painted minis sell in eBay auctions for less than retail - worth keeping an eye open.

[Revfan]

I collect/paint - almost exclusively - Old School Pre Slotta Greandier/Ral Partha D&D figs from 1977-1990(ish).

That, coupled with being a cheap-skate, means I like buying em in quantity at the lowest price per piece as I can get.  Inevitably, 20-40% of the figs will have been painted by a 12 year old back in the early 80s and I immediately dunk em in my ultrasonic cleaner to start stripping it all off.  As an example, I would try to pay $10 or less for a box of Grenadier Gold Line Fighting Men, and I can usually find them in the crappily painted state for that price.  Unpainted sets of the same figure, would probably be closer to $25 per box.  If painted to a "high Standard", they'd want $60 or more.

For me, this is kind of a secret hobby that I do in my basement when all the family duties are done for the day.  I like to have unpainted models... but only because I want to eventually get around to painting them myself.  If I can buy PAINTED models, that are as good as I can paint or better, then I just keep them painted.  I suck at painting, but I found I am better now at 48 than 98% of the 12 year olds that painted them 30 years ago.

[Drachenklinge]

Paint adds value. There might be a neccessary level for that, but even well dipped minis are better then unpainted ones at all. That is, if it is not about collecting, needing them in their respective natural state.

That said, I usually do not like not-by-me-painted minis in my collections, with rare exceptions. However, I am pretty sure, that - read something lime that around here somewhere - if the 5yo kid paint something, no matter how ugly, it will be somewhat beautiful to play with.

So, all in all, paint adds value, cause it is not LEGO or Barbie, etc. Minis are usually unpainted, and if painted, they look more alive. And kids always do want their toys more alive. Even the old kids. ^^

[Emir of Askaristan]

A decently painted mini has added value. One which has paint daubed on, is part painted or only under coated is probably less valuable than the original.

The question of how much is down to the eye of the beholder. I have Mini's painted for me which I pay approx 4 times the unpainted lead price per figure for. I've bought figures online and in bring and buys for more and for less. I've picked figure painters whose style is close to my own so that I can add command, personalities, artillery, etc as I need, while they provide the rank and file units. This help me build my army and let's me concentrate on the interesting bits - which stops me getting stalled.

Collectors grade figures are usually painted to a far higher standard than I could do and normally priced way above that of the bare metal, more likely £10-£15+ per single figure.

Pro painted is a term - nothing more. There are professional painters out there. Ultimately though you have to judge the quality based on pictures of their work and their prices. I've seen stuff on eBay described as pro painted which is only fit for stripping and stuff described as painted which is wonderfully shaded and blended and going for a song.

At the end of the day it's down to they buyer. If you are happy to pay the price asked for the quality given then that's all that matters. You'll always find those asking for more for a little less but seldom asking less for a lot more.

[THE CID]

Paint adds value, if it's painted to a good to high standard. I've made some decent extra cash painting over the last 25 years. I consider myself ( sounds big- headed ) in the top 10% of quality painters! but I get surprised what some figures go for. I've had some great painted figures go for 4 to 5 pounds and others that have went for over £30. It seems to depend on what's popular at the time.
Being out of work at the moment and having extra time, a few extra quid comes in handy. But I think it would be difficult to make a living out of painting full time, I'm too slow.

[Golgotha]

Thanks for the comments thus far been thought provoking. Emir of Askaristan's comment on "eye of the beholder" reminds me of a poem I wrote, hope you chaps don't mind but thought I would post it - still kinda related to the topic,...

Eye of The Beholder

I put paint to canvas knowing not what I do walking among giants
the colours merge a scattered mess in their wake, all is dashed and shattered,
the imagery,
all is
meaningless,
they…

…will give it life, in their musings
…will rip it asunder, in their criticisms
…will give it value, in their auctions.

Wretches…

I merely the colourer of canvas, gusher of raw emotions, at which will be guessed and gauged my genius, they…

…the blank canvasses are to me the portals into the unknown
…tell the future and the past
…carry in their ribbed veins the potential to greatness
…whose folly a simple brush stroke will render brilliance from failure
…know.

Innocence…

Vibrant in ignorance, textual in malediction
I ponder in melancholy.
Why?
Who gave them the right…
these my strokes
are
my…

Musings
Criticisms
Debates

My Valueless life…

Yet without them, I am nothing
without my creations…
they…
are no longer…

The paint dries, painstaking torment, moment of truth.
The layers of detail caking into eternal visage.
Timeless she will become.
She my love, will stare back and in her feminine contemplation

Influence…
Seduce…

Them.
Curve and dare I say it

beauty

manifold within the aesthetic psyche…

no longer…
able to justify…
themselves…
how…
do I…
justify…
myself…

It is only by their very being
That
I
Am
Appreciated, yet down trodden…

martyred…
persecuted…

The fumes of my ramblings strike.

Delirium ensues…

I forget.

Arapidityofmindlessadhocanimatedstrokesensue…

Relief.

Draw
The Cigarette
Contemplation

A stir of…
could it be…

Nay -

merely the cleaning
brushes are so pricey
and slow to pay

They ‘the others’ stare at me now…
Jealous, annoyed
I cannot
bear
Why?
Why did I not choose one of them…
instead…
Their blank stares
Tirelessly tearing .

Then there are the ‘discarded ones’
They have been put to rest.
I could not stand their screams…

anguish…
resentment…

My tormentors

Despite the damned, the remaining canvasses now bustle loudly for my attention, full knowing their…

nakedness…
emptiness…

I will Sin for them…

Art
What
Art

Reflections of reality
Twisted truths
Beauty
Some say
I saw it once
It did not belong to me…
and I yearn it still…
something Heavenly
unattainable…
I
Like the canvasses feel
Discarded
Forlorn
Alienated
Separate
My colour a different course…
Unmixed paint needs attention…
Its hue not quite agreeable.

Lavishly I begin to cover…
another’s nakedness…
another’s innocence…
Betrayed.

Fate determined with every glancing blow…
my brush…
a pen…
a sword…


Her Judgement day…
will come…
my only solace…
my release…

I will be The First to Judge.

My model once still
Begins to question
Me
I
Am
Stricken
It is no good
Too many words spoken
The grasp for beauty…
Lost again
Another damned canvas
No way out
For
Purgatory.

Marvelling at my ineptitude…
again
I hear the screams
another
discarded
beauty
all potential lost
in an ocean of swirling colour
Hell awaits.

Why?
Is it so difficult
Why?
…did
…They
…not
…warn me

I can not stand much more of…
this
torment

Bristle, a fleeting thought…
now even..
lost to memory…
I lie broken…
an inert frame…
structureless
my work nailed
No
my life


The scarlet spattered…
congealing on the floor…
a brief moment of inspiration…
I writhe and are…
reborn.
Bloodied…
sacrifice.
Life brings such bitter…
Death brings such sweet…
remembrance…

Enveloping poison.
All is tainted.
The tint having lost all lustre.

Having closed the pots.
Meticulously cleaned the brushes.

I must now…
as I close my eyes and all vision fades…
my only last wonder
ETERNITY
go to them...
now…
they call for…
me.

[Captain Blood]

 

Absolutely brilliant. You have captured perfectly the eternal tortured self-doubt of the artist.
I particularly love 'Bristle'.
And 'Draw. The cigarette.'
Publish sir, publish.
 

[Bugsda]

I've heard that writing poetry is one of the few things that makes you less money than painting figures, go for it