Repeater Rifles (Winchester, M1 .....

[Litebrite]

You all know that I am on a western theme for my SA battles. What is not included in the weapons rules is a repeater rifle (like the Winchester). Here is my easy suggestion for including it in the game:

Repeater Rifle: same as Bolt action Rifle except you do not require to spend an action to ready the weapon.  This weapon costs 3 EPs.

Lem

[Elbows]

There should definitely be a difference between a Winchester and an M1 though.  One is a lever-action repeater and the other is a standard semi-automatic rifle.  I would probably put the lever-action above the bolt action in terms of speed, but not likely power.

The majority of lever action rifles fired revolver cartridges (namely so that one cartridge could be used in both firearms with minimal fuss), so it'd be fine reducing the power a bit.

[Grumbling Grognard]

meh....this came up in the games I ran last weekend with a bunch of newbies.

Okay, my take:

I am a grognard.  No, really.  I love detail, hard-core history, you name it.   BUT, this game is *NOT* that at all.  I am not looking for the difference between an Enfield and a Springfield to be reflected in the "to-hit" numbers (for example).

With that in mind, along with the level of complexity in this game (or more accurately the lack there of!), IMHO, the differences between a repeating rifle that cycles the hammer assembly via a lever or a bolt is completely unimportant.  The caliber of the ammo, maybe a bit more.  The *feel* of the item in the game, that is what I am looking for in my games of SA.  To that end, a "Winchester" is the same as a bolt action rifle in my games.  Also, having fired both of these many times, I fail to see how the lever action rifle is supposed to be so much faster (they are not).

Seriously, this can be a huge can-o-worms and what does it really add to the game?  I have several figures that are wielding pistols that are surely not ".45 Automatics" but neither do they look like .22 cal peashooters either, but more like a .38 Special.  Well, IMO a player can stat his .38 Special pistol as either a .22 or a .45 (just take your pick and stick with it) but I am not creating another entry for ".38 Special" that is just a wee bit different than the .45 Automatic (for example).

I just do not want the game to focus (even a little bit) on the "equipment" and "kitting out" your team.  I do not see that as the focus of the game, nor where the real 'fun' will be had.

My two cents,
Scott

[Litebrite]

The reason that this has come up is because the Bolt Action rifle has to have the character use an action to reload the weapon. A repeater is faster and is evidenced by the historical records of firepower in battles.

Even the shotgun does not have you have to spend an action to reload the gun (which I personally think should be added to its characteristics). In this vein of thought, a Musket should take two or three actions to reload if a bolt action rifle takes one action.

This is the premise that my proposal if deriving from.

Lem

[Grumbling Grognard]

The reason that this has come up is because the Bolt Action rifle has to have the character use an action to reload the weapon. A repeater is faster and is evidenced by the historical records of firepower in battles.

Meh....  I am really not in a mood to debate, but I disagree.  If the lever action had *any real* advantage it would have remained in continued use, at least a bit longer, and been used in a few more models.  Other than that, I would sure like to see that "proof".   

But, if you still maintain it is really, substanically enough faster to swing the lever than to crank the bolt on a rifle in combat so as to be simulated in a game as light as Strange Aeons, I would suggest you then reduce the power of the weapon.  As a "grognard" I must complain that the difference in the round fired (assuming .308/.303 for the bolt and .45 for the lever action) is *MUCH* more substancial than any difference in actual speed of operation.  And (again IMHO) this would impact both the damage as well as the range.

AND, the proposed re-design would make a Winchester more expensive than an Enfield or Springfield, thus by extrapolation, a better weapon and one that can be fired just as quickly and accurately as Colt .45 automatic pistol.  Surely, we don't have to go there do we?   

Again, my over-priced 2 cents.

Scott

[Mr. Peabody]

You get a bit more than just a reload from the Ready action that the Bolt Action requires. You also get to shoot up to 20". Only one other weapon can do that and it costs 4EP and requires a Loader...

The Bolt Action really comes into its own when you have a model with the DEX and perhaps a skill or two to make every shot count. Then it's a monster killer that shines in a mid campaign list.

If I wanted to give repeating rifles some numbers I would pick something from the median of weapon stats, not because the Winchester or Henry were 'average' weapons, but to avoid unbalancing the game.

How about borrowing the stat-line from the Long Bow? Perhaps allow Repeaters the Hollow Point Bullets Ammunition upgrade? This basically just duplicates another mid-range, 1EP weapon and the only real change made is the tweak to the ammunition upgrade option. This shouldn't upset the balance too much.

I think I've just convinced myself! I have virtually no Bow & Arrow minis, but do have some chaps with carbines & such that need some time on the table.   

[Dezmond]

I believe militaries preferred bolt action rifles over lever actions because they were perceived to be easier to operate while prone.

[Connectamabob]

From videos I've seen of trained/experienced shooters using bolt action rifles, those things can be racked in the blink of an eye if the operator's practiced in it. If there is a difference between that and a lever action, it's measured in milliseconds. It might make a statistical difference in the total number of rounds when firing constantly over a given session/engagement period, but on the level of individual shots the difference does not appear meaningful to my admittedly inexpert eye. That's assuming a trained/experienced operator, though. I imagine a lever action would be faster for an inexperienced shooter.

I'd consider the rules about bolt actions requiring a reading action to be more about balance than realism, and lever action should logically be subject to the same. If you remove the ready action for the lever action on the basis or realism, then remove it from the bolt action for the same reason. If you have to keep the ready action on the bolt action for the sake of balance, then you'd need to keep it on the lever action for the same.

In fact, the "ready" special seems very inconsistently applied if one approaches things from a realism perspective. If a bolt action requires ready based on realism, then so should a pump shotgun and especially a long bow, but they don't. The .30 machine gun shouldn't realistically require ready, but in the rules it does. IMO this makes it pretty clear ready is a balance thing rather than something determined by the properties of the real world weapon.

I am curious how one would handle a semi-auto rifle.

[Grumbling Grognard]

Well, I am not aiming for historical accuracy really.

I think much of the "flavor" of the lever action is that it was "rapid fire".  Fact is, it was.  Damned fast.  It was also widely available, at a good price, long before most reliable bolt actions in the United States, but that was in the 1870s...if you are gamin' that period, hell yeah, you need it IMO.  Primary advantage....hell there are almost no bolt actions around!  Ammo is interchangeable with pistols (not in SA...but in reality) and it had a quite large ammo capacity in the old tube fed pistol cartridges.  

The Winchester 1895 was the last one made and it was a flop as no military was interested in lever action rifles esp. firing smaller cal rounds...until WWI and a dire shortage of rifles in Russia.  Great video:    Russian Winchester WWI Lever Action Rifles  ...but this animal is entirely different from the old 1872 that fired a pistol round from a tube feed.  This Russian thing fires a 7.62mm (full rifle cal.) and uses stripper clips!  Nice...and perhaps not so hard to find for an "agent" in 1920s-30s with a few $100 on an expense account...  Hey, just thinkin...  

[WallyTWest]

My Take: I doubt it would make little difference what kind of difference it would make shooting a shoggoth-

But if I were to suggest a variant, I would be looking at how criticals and critical failures might interact.