A daemonic giant beast in Dragon Rampant?

[Hobgoblin]

I played a couple more games last night, again I used greater beast with cunning and this time added fear as we were playing a 32 point game - sounds a lot but only five units apiece. My opponent had an all mounted army, with a griffin which he classed as a greater beast with fear and fly. He was taken aback that the defence value was 6, dont think he realised it before the game started. At the end he said it would be much better to use the elite horse profile - its almost identical to greater beast, defence is one better at 5, move is one worse at 7+ but of course most of the time wild charge will kick in so you will be testing to attack on 5+. In all other regards the profiles are the same - BUT elite horse get counter charge, which can make a huge difference - ie roll hits on 3+ rather than 5+.

I realise that it's not the spirit of the game to choose one profile because it's better than another, but there is a mismatch here. The points value for greater warbeast is the same as elite horse, but elite horse is better, unless I am missing some glaring error. I paid 8 points (cunning) to get a defence value of 5, I could have had it for 6 points with elite horse and got counter charge for free!

The thing (and it's a big one) that you might be missing is that Elite Riders have a huge vulnerability, because they have Wild Charge but don't have Ranger (a.k.a Ferocious in Lion Rampant). So they can be easily lured into rough terrain, where they will have to fight as equals against Scout and will be highly vulnerable to Bellicose Foot and Warbeasts of both descriptions.

In many of the LR games I've played, Mounted Men-at-Arms (Elite Riders) have been completely undone by Bidowers - in one case, being lured into woods and then finished off by a unit of Serfs (the indignity!).

Given that, I'd say that 6 points for Elite Riders balances quite nicely with 6 points for Greater Warbeasts. While Greater Warbeasts have Wild Charge, it isn't a problem for them if that leads them into forests or swamps or ruins. For Elite Riders, that can be disastrous.

[guitarheroandy]

I also think it depends on what you want from your huge war beast. If you want a 'Warhammer-esque all-powerful killer thingy', then there probably is 'imbalance' in the rules. However, if you want a ferocious beast that, when fighting on its own terms is IMMENSE, but if caught 'on the hop' is more vulnerable, then your view will be very different. As I said in my previous post, the key thing is that both players are able to agree or compromise to get a good game.

The great thing about Dragon Rampant is that it enables each of us to take our own view and go with it. Quite a refreshing change from many of the typical rulesets from the past few years!! 

[Hobgoblin]

I also think it depends on what you want from your huge war beast. If you want a 'Warhammer-esque all-powerful killer thingy', then there probably is 'imbalance' in the rules. However, if you want a ferocious beast that, when fighting on its own terms is IMMENSE, but if caught 'on the hop' is more vulnerable, then your view will be very different. As I said in my previous post, the key thing is that both players are able to agree or compromise to get a good game.

The great thing about Dragon Rampant is that it enables each of us to take our own view and go with it. Quite a refreshing change from many of the typical rulesets from the past few years!! 

I couldn't agree more. Dragon/Lion Rampant has a wonderful "lock and key" quality. "Lock and key" is a term I came across applied to props in rugby and their respective scrummaging strengths - encapsulating the notion that just because Player A bests Player B and Player B bests Player C, it doesn't mean that Player A will best Player C. You just need to have the right key for the right lock. You get something similar in LR/DR, with terrain adding an extra and very important dimension. So, Scouts can't do much against Elite Riders in the open - but in the vicinity of ruins or woods, it's a very different story. Elite Foot will cut Bellicose Foot to ribbons if they charge them, but there's always a good chance that it'll go the other way (via Countercharge or simply the faster movement of Bellicose Foot - especially in rough terrain). And then there are troop types that work better for specific scenarios - which is why it's great to roll for scenario once you've drawn up the warbands.

[m4jumbo]

The thing (and it's a big one) that you might be missing is that Elite Riders have a huge vulnerability, because they have Wild Charge but don't have Ranger (a.k.a Ferocious in Lion Rampant). So they can be easily lured into rough terrain, where they will have to fight as equals against Scout and will be highly vulnerable to Bellicose Foot and Warbeasts of both descriptions.

In many of the LR games I've played, Mounted Men-at-Arms (Elite Riders) have been completely undone by Bidowers - in one case, being lured into woods and then finished off by a unit of Serfs (the indignity!).

Given that, I'd say that 6 points for Elite Riders balances quite nicely with 6 points for Greater Warbeasts. While Greater Warbeasts have Wild Charge, it isn't a problem for them if that leads them into forests or swamps or ruins. For Elite Riders, that can be disastrous.

I agree that Greater Warbeasts having the Ranger ability vs the Elite Riders not having it is a big advantage to consider. 

[Morgan]

Given that, I'd say that 6 points for Elite Riders balances quite nicely with 6 points for Greater Warbeasts. While Greater Warbeasts have Wild Charge, it isn't a problem for them if that leads them into forests or swamps or ruins. For Elite Riders, that can be disastrous.

That's an excellent point - nice bit of analysis there! (And I shall try to remember this for future games ...)

[LCpl McDoom]

The term 'Lock & Key' provides for me the perfect summary on why I like these rules. It shows the rules have a great dynamic range to allow for many factors and combinations that can be brought to the tabletop to get different games.

[andyskinner]

Having the unit types as balanced as possible lets you choose the one that you think fits best.  And having the freedom to match your figures to the behavior you want is, I think, more in the spirit of the rules than matching only to the models, with an implication that you're trying to get away with something if you differ from how someone else does it.

I like how pulling more factors and ways to look at it has made these unit types look a lot more balanced than they did on first glance.

I'm hoping for more fantastical rules to vary units in subtle and balanced ways, just so things feel like they "should".  But the required trade-offs make for a good game system.  I wanted my ents to be heavy warbeast plus cunning plus venomous, but I'm going to have to choose.  Venomous gives the results I think they should have, so I'll just assume they're hasty when they get caught. 

andy

[Hobgoblin]

Having the unit types as balanced as possible lets you choose the one that you think fits best.  And having the freedom to match your figures to the behavior you want is, I think, more in the spirit of the rules than matching only to the models, with an implication that you're trying to get away with something if you differ from how someone else does it.

I couldn't agree more. Lithe and lean ogres could be Bellicose Foot. Ogres with seven-league boots (and what could be more ogreish?) might use a cavalry profile. Portly ogres, replete with the blood and ground bones of an Englishman or two, might use a slow-moving Elite or Armoured Foot profile. And so on. And indeed the profiles might change from game to game for the same models (perhaps they haven't got their seven-league boots on today).

That all plays into my point about wolfriders. If you want your wolfriders to be a savage menace in the wilds, Lesser Warbeast is perfect. If you want them to be skittish, hit-and-run raiders, Light Riders works fine. It all allows greater differentiation. I have, for instance, at least four generations of Citadel cold ones with slann or lizardman riders. The biggest are really nasty-looking beasts that are surely Warbeasts of some sort. The smallest might even be Bellicose Foot (with the Armour upgrade for scales). Or they could be Heavy Riders or Lesser Warbeasts. They'll probably be all three over the course of a few games.