Question about bidowers in Lion Rampant.

[Steam Flunky]

Admiral Benbow,Fugazi and i played our first Lion Rampant game yesterday evening. It was a fun game but we were uncertain about Bidowers.
It seems that although they start with only 6 figures they fight/shoot (as long as they have 4 or more figures left) with the full 12 dice. This seems to be correct but considering that for a unit that only costs 2 points, they move faster than other infantry and also have "hard to target","skirmish" and "evade" special rules.
They seem to be much too good for their points value, especially if the stay around rough terrain.
Am i missing something or is everybody trying to find an excuse to get a few units of bidowers into their warbands?

[Nord]

Wait until you try crossbows!

[Atheling]

Wait until you try crossbows!

This is oh so true!!   

Many a time the Islemen in our Haggis Rampant campaign have been fodder for Crossbowmen and English Elite Archers!!! 

Darrell.

[Captain Blood]

Robert, I agree. The 'bidowers', omnipresent in all the games of LR I've seen or taken part in (which to be fair is only four) seem to me to be overpowered and represent a historical troop type who were probably very rare in medieval times: kind of expert, professional, highly effective skirmishers. Without re-hashing the discussion again, it's here: http://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=85458.0).
The counter-argument seems to be that LR isn't really meant to be historically accurate. Just designed to give a good, enjoyable game - which I'm all in favour of
And that the bidowers are really designed to represent the kind of Robin Hood characters.

Am i missing something or is everybody trying to find an excuse to get a few units of bidowers into their warbands?

My point exactly

But it's a minor quibble. Aside from that, it's a nice ruleset. Did you guys enjoy it?

[Steam Flunky]

But it's a minor quibble. Aside from that, it's a nice ruleset. Did you guys enjoy it?

Yes we did. They are simple rules that are fun to play and we have noticed that as we are getting older we cannot be bothered to spend time searching through complicated rules looking for explanations.
Years ago we regularly played WRG Ancients and the like but nowadays we have got lazy.

[Captain Blood]

Exactly the same for me

I used to play big old 'proper' wargames with WRG rules all the time back in the 1980s.
Then I stopped wargaming altogether for about 15 years. Looking back, I realised it's because I didn't enjoy the rules with all their complexities and laws and jargon; or the competitive nature of the games; or the lack of visual appeal in marching two solid lines of lead towards each other - and hoping your painstakingly constructed army list was rigged with better super-troop types than your opponent...

Skirmish / Lead Adventure style gaming with simple rules is so much more fun and so much more pleasing on the eye

[Arlequín]

Ditto... 

[Vermis]

  I've seen that Larry Leadhead strip before. Not to drag things (even further) off topic, but I think it's a great illustration of the problem with GW's rules, among others - loads and loads of complicated rules and procedures. Great for kids, soaking up info, but not so much when they get older. Not so much laziness, as Steam Flunky says, but more geared towards situation assessment than sheer volume of stats and rules.

On that note, Captain, IIRC you've said you never played any GW games...

I used to play big old 'proper' wargames with WRG rules all the time back in the 1980s.
Then I stopped wargaming altogether for about 15 years. Looking back, I realised it's because I didn't enjoy the rules with all their complexities and laws and jargon; or the competitive nature of the games; or the lack of visual appeal in marching two solid lines of lead towards each other - and hoping your painstakingly constructed army list was rigged with better super-troop types than your opponent...

Sounds like you've had the 'GW Hobby Experience' anyway.

LR/DR go the other way, fortunately.

[Arlequín]

Seriously the old WRG Rules made 'GW' at its most complex seem like a series of Spot the Dog Books. 

[Elbows]

I tried to play Advanced Squad Leader numerous times in my youth.  "Tried" being the key word in that sentence.

[Captain Blood]

I tried to play Advanced Squad Leader numerous times in my youth.  "Tried" being the key word in that sentence.

 

Me too.
Very much of its era. Fantabulously complicated. I think it's why i never really got into D&D and RPGs. I had Traveller. I had Runequest. I couldn't make head nor tail of them. Just an absurd amount of rules, stats and procedures. It's probably why I still hVe an allergic reaction to big, fat commercial rule-sets to this day.

So yes, despite my doubts about 'bidowers', Lion Rampant and its like are a relative breath of fresh air